[Yoga Flame]

Maybe feed the stereo line-out of the EMU 0204 into the E9 amp?

 

[hddoc]

I am currently using an E-mu 0202 with a new MacBook Air.
 
Unlike with my Sony laptop, I have been unable to output 24 bit/192kHz files natively via USB to the E-mu DAC from the Mac. I do so using asio and either JRiver or Foobar.
 
Is the Mac limited to 96kHz output via USB or do I need to use a different program or drivers to output a 24/192 signal over USB to the E-mu DAC?

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

But it sure looks to me like the EMU 0204 would be a better choice, provided it can handle that sort of headphone.  Is its amp suited for something like an HD600/HD650?

The built-in headphone section is rather anemic, unfortunately. It's only rated for 20 mW @ 22 ohms and those Sennheisers are 300 ohms, so you may find it lacking in bass and volume. Regarding questions about using the Sony, it all depends on how much effort they put into designing the headphone section. In an entry-level model, probably not much.
 
The whole "level match and everything will sound the same" makes sense until you ask yourself, which level am I matching? One frequency? Broadband noise? What about frequency timing? Sure, Mackie HR824s have very flat frequency responses according to the charts, but what those charts don't take into account is the passive woofer design the Mackies use to generate more bass. The passive woofer takes a small amount of time to start vibrating. Hence the common knowledge that the bass on HR824s is "weird" even though they measure flat.
 
Measurements are a great start, but they aren't everything. Neither are the results of one person's DBT.

 

[EddieE]

[size=x-small]I don't think anyone was suggesting for a second all speakers and headphones sound the same or even that they should.[/size]

 

[infinitesymphony]

Maybe it's apples and oranges, but the same logic can be applied to other audio equipment as well. Different equipment measures differently, and sometimes those differences can be audible. And in the case I mentioned above, the measurements were incomplete.

 

[EddieE]

Different pieces of audio equipment have different tasks.
 
The source, dac, amp are all meant to reproduce music accurately, and CAN reproduce music accurately at this point in time.
 
Speakers and headphones might try and accurately reproduce music, they might try and offer some flavour of music, or an outrageous "fun" sound sig - it is at this point where the consumers personal tastes come into things (along with equalisers, sound enhancements, filters etc).
 
There is an interesting thread here where someone brought up an article talking about how the audio industry has long past the point where they can accurately reproduce a recording, so are now selling distortion and innaccuracy instead.
 
Certainly sounds right to me - look at the hifiman presented as the best player even though it is the least accurate and tube amps as the most audiophile you can even though the difference is distortion. We have pleasing sounding defects in amps and sources being sold as desirable product features.
 
[size=x-small]Selling products with distortiona and innacuracy is great for everyone in the business because it brings choice into proceedings, it brings judgements of taste of those who like this kind of innacuracy and those who prefer this sort of distortion, it allows people to keep on upping prices claiming the is the best most "audiophile" sound yet only to magically top it 12 months down the line in time for a new financial year.[/size]
 
[size=x-small]But, the article argues, in reality at the point where we really are with audio, we could have reduced the chocies relating to personal taste we make to headphones and speakers - the only choice in amps and dacs would be to do with the features offered by the model, the headphones/speakers it could drive and the reliability of the manufacturer.[/size]
 
[size=x-small]But where's the endless profit in that?[/size]

 

[3X0]

Quote:

The whole "level match and everything will sound the same" makes sense until you ask yourself, which level am I matching? One frequency? Broadband noise? What about frequency timing? Sure, Mackie HR824s have very flat frequency responses according to the charts, but what those charts don't take into account is the passive woofer design the Mackies use to generate more bass. The passive woofer takes a small amount of time to start vibrating. Hence the common knowledge that the bass on HR824s is "weird" even though they measure flat.
 
Measurements are a great start, but they aren't everything. Neither are the results of one person's DBT.

Transducers do not sound the same. In speakers, we are affected by two variables: the speakers themselves, and the sound of the room. In headphones the latter phenomenon is greatly reduced, but there are still positively differences in the former. We know this, this is measurable. Frequency response is a very basic starting indicator.
 
There are a couple of other things that will not necessarily sound the same. Off the top of my head, I believe turntable heads may be one of them. I have no experience with turntables so don't quote me on this.
 
However, modern-day DACs and amplifiers (i.e. electronics) that are well-built will measure far beyond the perceptive capability of the human ear. Ergo they will all sound the same once the levels (between the two pieces of hardware being compared) are matched in an otherwise consistent system, unless again the component is faulty. Electronics (DACs, amplifiers, CDPs, transports, et alia) sound the same.

 

[dynasonic]

Lot's of enlightening posts so far and I have to agree with some of the sentiments regarding low cost to high cost DAC's. For instance I have never found a piece of audio equipment that sounds better than my very first purchase more than 20 years ago.
 

 

[infinitesymphony]

Quote:

Electronics (DACs, amplifiers, CDPs, transports, et alia) sound the same.

 
Regardless of design? Regardless of what they're powering? Regardless of impedance matches or mismatches? Regardless of measurable performance differences? You seem to be okay with acknowledging that there are a high number of variables in terms of transducer performance but seem unwilling to apply the same logic to anything else.
 
Make a CMoy and roll some op-amps if you want an extremely audible example.

 

[EddieE]

To be fair transducers are moving parts where there is a lot more margin for variables than electronics, then the end sound they produce has as much to do with acoustics as the driver design itself which is an even bigger mine field of variables. Even if someone wanted to make a 100% realistic speaker, there is guarantee they would succeed, indeed that is the mission of many speaker manufacturers and I don't think anyone has done it yet.
 
As 3X0 says with solid state circuitry we are talking a whole different reality.
 
If a DAC's function is to reproduce an analogue line out signal from a digital source, modern dacs CAN do that. If an amp wants to amplify that lineout signal accurately and without any audible distortion it CAN do that. 
 
I get what you're saying about minor differences existing, which is why I have been saying "basically the same" rather than "identical", but the differences are minor and once you get past the budget stuff I don't know how much audible improvement you get even if you spend a thousand more.

 

[vrln]

Just posting my experience... Had the 0404USB. Long story short: worst DAC I´ve ever tried. Harsh, tiny soundstage, lacks detail as well. I actually prefered my built-in PC integrated card. And it´s not that I just have an issue with analytical gear (running REF7 + Genelec)!
 
Oh and the built-in headphone amp is pretty (to say the least) weak as well. My advice would be to stay as far as possible.

 

[3X0]

Quote:

Regardless of design? Regardless of what they're powering? Regardless of impedance matches or mismatches? Regardless of measurable performance differences? You seem to be okay with acknowledging that there are a high number of variables in terms of transducer performance but seem unwilling to apply the same logic to anything else.
 
Make a CMoy and roll some op-amps if you want an extremely audible example.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes with reservations.
 
Design by and large doesn't matter if they meet the basic requirements of faithful reproduction. 20Hz-20KHz, inaudibly low distortion, inaudibly low stereo crosstalk, et alia. The difference in such statistics in well-built, soundly-engineered components are beyond the range of any human hearing. Even a baby (n.b. we have hypersensitive hearing when we are young) with especially golden ears wouldn't be able to tell the difference, unless the component is defective or poorly designed (i.e. doesn't reproduce a flat frequency response with inaudibly low distortion and crosstalk, et cetera). Building a well-performing DAC and amp (or virtually any upstream electronic component, for that matter) is incredibly cheap relative to what people spend for their audiophile-voodoo-powered gear.
 
The caveat is that something like a Sansa Clip+ may not be capable of driving something like Sennheiser HD 650s to sufficient SPL. In this case an amp with higher output may be logically preferable. The Clip+ would obviously be voltage-limited.
 
 
There is no data proving the absurd notion that decent DACs and amps sound even remotely different. None whatsoever. No tests, nothing.
 
Once again the differences in transducer performance is sufficiently documented and recorded in audio history. If you level-match two different sets of speakers in the same positions in acoustically identical rooms they very well may sound different. If you level-match a single set of speakers in two acoustically different rooms they will most definitely sound different.
Quote:

To be fair transducers are moving parts where there is a lot more margin for variables than electronics, then the end sound they produce has as much to do with acoustics as the driver design itself which is an even bigger mine field of variables. Even if someone wanted to make a 100% realistic speaker, there is guarantee they would succeed, indeed that is the mission of many speaker manufacturers and I don't think anyone has done it yet.
 
As 3X0 says with solid state circuitry we are talking a whole different reality.
 
If a DAC's function is to reproduce an analogue line out signal from a digital source, modern dacs CAN do that. If an amp wants to amplify that lineout signal accurately and without any audible distortion it CAN do that. 
 
I get what you're saying about minor differences existing, which is why I have been saying "basically the same" rather than "identical", but the differences are minor and once you get past the budget stuff I don't know how much audible improvement you get even if you spend a thousand more.

Correct. I'm more extreme than you though, which is why I argue that they are identical. I argue that because my ears have heard the equality first-hand; I've already invested thousands in the futility and rue it.

 

[endless402]

try some more dacs
 

 

[infinitesymphony]

Unless you guys feel like shutting down all of the forums except for the ones about headphones and speakers as a result of 3X0's personal revelations, let's resume talking about the 0204 and computer audio.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

Unless you guys feel like shutting down all of the forums except for the ones about headphones and speakers as a result of 3X0's personal revelations, let's resume talking about the 0204 and computer audio.

 
The thing is, features unrelated to sound quality still matter.  And to many, build quality does too.
 
Oh, and it's extremely unlikely that everyone will suddenly have a revelation, realizing that all uncolored quality amps and dacs sound the same....