[ginandbacon]

Some of you can't even bother to read. I never said anything about measurements, nor has anyone else, unless I missed something.

I was following audiosciencereview and gave up on it pretty quickly because those people are obsessed with measurements and don't even listen to the devices.

Earlier I was talking about "quantization errors" - that has nothing to do with measurements, it's just math. Don't be scared of it.

Thing is, for a long time I've avoided posting on here because of the large number of people that talk nonsense about mambo-jambo and react aggressively.

I was only triggered when a certain well know member tried to back his nonsense about "burn in" with some "science" because he is well aware most people don't know what that means and are too lazy to check it up. And even if they do bother, they likely won't understand (and that's normal). But it gives people the impression that there is some scientific background. Unfortunately this is now a widely used tactic to spread lies and conspiracies. There is no scientific backing for "burning in", none whatsoever. It's your choice to believe in it, like it's your choice to belive in God, just don't pretend there is any science behind it. There isn't.

Similarly, there is no sound changes between firmwares. I am happy to be proven wrong by @Paul - iBasso (since he knows what the engineers are doing) , but no amount of posts that claim to hear differences will change my mind, especially when posters contradict themselves (seriously, if the newer firmware "ruins" the sound for you, then magically it makes it better a couple of pages later, don't you think it's more likely you are imagining things?).

"They don't understand what they don't understand."

Yeah, that's very deep, you found the mystical meaning, the hidden truth that only reveals itself to the initiated ones.
It's quite ironic to say something like that when you make things up.

Now, I'll let you guys get back in peace to your things.

I apologize if I misread your original post, that was not my intention. I've listened to a lot of bookshelf speakers that really do sound better after about a 100 hours. There is no way you can convince me otherwise even though I can't scientifically prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, does that mean EVERYTHING needs burn in. maybe not, but i do believe speakers and headphones open up a bit after some time. maybe headphones less so but speakers do.

I have not go e back to the 11.2 amp since the last firmware upgrade but i noticed zero difference between the first and second but it could have altered the sound. I believe the only 2 issues fixed in the first was the digital battery drain and the firmware for the AMP13, that is it. Those 2 things shouldn't have changed the sound and it didn't to my ears personally.

Also, that reference to "they don't understand what they don't understand" was about my post about someone on YouTube saying the Monarchs were garbage even though he had never heard them and was going by measurements all while the reviewer who did the measurements said they were worth it IF they were in your budget. When confronted, they stood there ground even though they were calling something garbage that they never even heard before. I don't think a graph tells the whole story and saying something is garbage without experiencing it is absurd. Honestly, there is only one person sounding condescending, which may be my fault but there is no reason to get super defensive about it. How could one understand an IEM they never heard before?

 

[horatiu]

.

 

[jamato8]

It is very easy to show how capacitors change. I sometimes would burn in caps on my LC102 Sencore. The capacitance goes up, ESR, which has an effect on the DC and also on sound, goes down and this could take 10 hours to sometimes 50 or more. That is just the caps, which are many in most electronics. They change, which will in the end, change the sound. That is very well known, the change in caps, and that is just one component/type. And many manufactures state that there is burn in, and not for their convenience but so the customer will know. But this is beating a dead horse, it won't move, and some like to beat the dead horse for their own thought process. What I refer to are observable changes in one component that can be measured and shown.

 

[Maxx134]

. These reverbs, huge amount of air, combined with liquid/crunchy, realistic timbre. Im melting

I have finally compared the amp13 to both my amp11mk2s, and my amp12EXN.
Although I can conceed that it does have a bit further reaching soundstage, I still prefer the other two amps transient detailing and liveliness over amp13. The amp13 also performed perfect with low level detailing.
It is only the crisp part of the music which I found a bit more lively sparkle on the other two amps.
Amp13 being a bit smoothed, so it's really a preference choice.

I tested the amps with the Aroma Jewel, Mest Indigo, and finally the Monarch mk2.

I would place the very impressive Monarch mk2 at the level of a "U12T". That is saying ALOT. This IEM punches into $2k level (!).

The Aroma Jewel is simply the best IEM I have heard, but both the Jewel & my Indigo are still at a bit higher level in the trebles detail. The Monarch are very close. Similar in soundstage and excellent tonality and sound.

Just checked the amp11.2s out of curiosity. Damn this f**cker is a detail monster. Great tonal balance too. Bravo iBasso!

I believe this amp board and Amp12EXN have an edge on upper range detailing over amp13, but not by much, so would be a preference thing.

I would normally add "trust me, I'm a software engineer" but people around here only trust their ears, that's why they imagine things that aren't there.

The Truth is, the bottom line, last definitive measuring device we have, IS OUR EARS. It has the ultimate final say, not some straight line of one parameter on a screen.
Software is only programming, it is not circuit engineering for optimal SMD device performance.

The discussion was about quantization errors when changing bitdepth - you don't trust your ears, you do engineering. Math is universal and never lies to you, like your ears do

I would respectfully point out that this view is unfortunately tooooo theoretical....
The SMD devices that are performing these functions are not theoretical perfect performers.
Their parameters, proximity, and placement on multiple layer circuit boards are another field of engineering that is taken into account.

Real world issues will necessitate many more mathematical occurrences going on.

"There will always be a new measurement that will be discovered. For example, the effect of jitter was initially ignored."

This is a good example of engineering thinking only in the theoretical, and finally having to face a real world , realtime issue.

There is no scientific backing for "burning in", none whatsoever. It's your choice to believe in it, like it's your choice to belive in God, just don't pretend there is any science behind it. There isn't.

Apologies, but this is a bit too general of a statement. On the face of it, it is ridiculous. The statement is like air as it pertains to no specific scenario and is just not focused to any parameter to clarify .
Every single electronic component has specific charts of parameter/performance change due to various specified conditions.
This statement is a regurgitation of "theoretical performance" not real world performance, which will always encounter the reality of the circuits performance and errors.
Do not be stuck on the theoretical. This realtime, real world audio, is not the static software world, which only relies on "ones and zeros".
Literally every audio company will elaborate to you about thier own specific "burn in" scenarios. We have desktop dacs that need 2 weeks plugged in for thier dac chips to "settle".
That's why the statement is much to ambiguous.

it's just math. Don't be scared of it.

Its just math. It can represent many things, but only one aspect at a time. Dont be fooled by it.

Similarly, there is no sound changes between firmwares

Sorry, but you are not an ibasso electrical engineer to note the parameter changes, and which of them would affect the sound.
For instance, the battery optimizations could affect the dac chips.
I am getting very much better battery and less heat on last firmware.
That in itself may change audible performance, which we won't know the specifics about.

 

[MusicalDoc8]

Some of you can't even bother to read. I never said anything about measurements, nor has anyone else, unless I missed something.

I was following audiosciencereview and gave up on it pretty quickly because those people are obsessed with measurements and don't even listen to the devices.

Earlier I was talking about "quantization errors" - that has nothing to do with measurements, it's just math. Don't be scared of it.

Thing is, for a long time I've avoided posting on here because of the large number of people that talk nonsense about mambo-jambo and react aggressively.

I was only triggered when a certain well know member tried to back his nonsense about "burn in" with some "science" because he is well aware most people don't know what that means and are too lazy to check it up. And even if they do bother, they likely won't understand (and that's normal). But it gives people the impression that there is some scientific background. Unfortunately this is now a widely used tactic to spread lies and conspiracies. There is no scientific backing for "burning in", none whatsoever. It's your choice to believe in it, like it's your choice to belive in God, just don't pretend there is any science behind it. There isn't.

Similarly, there is no sound changes between firmwares. I am happy to be proven wrong by @Paul - iBasso (since he knows what the engineers are doing) , but no amount of posts that claim to hear differences will change my mind, especially when posters contradict themselves (seriously, if the newer firmware "ruins" the sound for you, then magically it makes it better a couple of pages later, don't you think it's more likely you are imagining things?).

"They don't understand what they don't understand."

Yeah, that's very deep, you found the mystical meaning, the hidden truth that only reveals itself to the initiated ones.
It's quite ironic to say something like that when you make things up.

Now, I'll let you guys get back in peace to your things.

Audiosciencereview....i got bluffed into thinking they had a point, then found out they said the ananda sound distorted and bad. Then bought a pair on a whim and my experience was overwhelmingly differend. After reading this forum I understood they mostly go for measurements that say little about actual sound quality. Reading here, i think there's a good balance of factual feedback vs personal opinion.
And there's always someone with an overly good/bad attitude, but still it's much better than other places.

 

[AnalogandDigital]

I have finally compared the amp13 to both my amp11mk2s, and my amp12EXN.
Although I can conceed that it does have a bit further reaching soundstage, I still prefer the other two amps transient detailing and liveliness over amp13. The amp13 also performed perfect with low level detailing.
It is only the crisp part of the music which I found a bit more lively sparkle on the other two amps.
Amp13 being a bit smoothed, so it's really a preference choice.

I tested the amps with the Aroma Jewel, Mest Indigo, and finally the Monarch mk2.

I would place the very impressive Monarch mk2 at the level of a "U12T". That is saying ALOT. This IEM punches into $2k level (!).

The Aroma Jewel is simply the best IEM I have heard, but both the Jewel & my Indigo are still at a bit higher level in the trebles detail. The Monarch are very close. Similar in soundstage and excellent tonality and sound.


I believe this amp board and Amp12EXN have an edge on upper range detailing over amp13, but not by much, so would be a preference thing.


The Truth is, the bottom line, last definitive measuring device we have, IS OUR EARS. It has the ultimate final say, not some straight line of one parameter on a screen.
Software is only programming, it is not circuit engineering for optimal SMD device performance.


I would respectfully point out that this view is unfortunately tooooo theoretical....
The SMD devices that are performing these functions are not theoretical perfect performers.
Their parameters, proximity, and placement on multiple layer circuit boards are another field of engineering that is taken into account.

Real world issues will necessitate many more mathematical occurrences going on.


This is a good example of engineering thinking only in the theoretical, and finally having to face a real world , realtime issue.


Apologies, but this is a bit too general of a statement. On the face of it, it is ridiculous. The statement is like air as it pertains to no specific scenario and is just not focused to any parameter to clarify .
Every single electronic component has specific charts of parameter/performance change due to various specified conditions.
This statement is a regurgitation of "theoretical performance" not real world performance, which will always encounter the reality of the circuits performance and errors.
Do not be stuck on the theoretical. This realtime, real world audio, is not the static software world, which only relies on "ones and zeros".
Literally every audio company will elaborate to you about thier own specific "burn in" scenarios. We have desktop dacs that need 2 weeks plugged in for thier dac chips to "settle".
That's why the statement is much to ambiguous.


Its just math. It can represent many things, but only one aspect at a time. Dont be fooled by it.


Sorry, but you are not an ibasso electrical engineer to note the parameter changes, and which of them would affect the sound.
For instance, the battery optimizations could affect the dac chips.
I am getting very much better battery and less heat on last firmware.
That in itself may change audible performance, which we won't know the specifics about.

It's all personal preference
When looking into the ThieAudio Monarch Mk II I noticed the opinion below
He clearly thinks different as you do
Nevertheless I hope I can try a pair one day
Other option is catch & release or ... maybe keep them
Now I own UM Mest Mk II & U12T and maybe their just to close to own all ...
.
But finally if our ears like what the hear ...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/thieaudio-monarch-mkii-experience.962446/

 

[samandhi]

I apologize if I misread your original post, that was not my intention. I've listened to a lot of bookshelf speakers that really do sound better after about a 100 hours. There is no way you can convince me otherwise even though I can't scientifically prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, does that mean EVERYTHING needs burn in. maybe not, but i do believe speakers and headphones open up a bit after some time. maybe headphones less so but speakers do.

I have not go e back to the 11.2 amp since the last firmware upgrade but i noticed zero difference between the first and second but it could have altered the sound. I believe the only 2 issues fixed in the first was the digital battery drain and the firmware for the AMP13, that is it. Those 2 things shouldn't have changed the sound and it didn't to my ears personally.

Also, that reference to "they don't understand what they don't understand" was about my post about someone on YouTube saying the Monarchs were garbage even though he had never heard them and was going by measurements all while the reviewer who did the measurements said they were worth it IF they were in your budget. When confronted, they stood there ground even though they were calling something garbage that they never even heard before. I don't think a graph tells the whole story and saying something is garbage without experiencing it is absurd. Honestly, there is only one person sounding condescending, which may be my fault but there is no reason to get super defensive about it. How could one understand an IEM they never heard before?

<edited out bad remarks>

Anyhow, moving on. I enjoyed reading your references, and I don't believe you have anything to apologize for good sir!

I have finally compared the amp13 to both my amp11mk2s, and my amp12EXN.
Although I can conceed that it does have a bit further reaching soundstage, I still prefer the other two amps transient detailing and liveliness over amp13. The amp13 also performed perfect with low level detailing.
It is only the crisp part of the music which I found a bit more lively sparkle on the other two amps.
Amp13 being a bit smoothed, so it's really a preference choice.

I tested the amps with the Aroma Jewel, Mest Indigo, and finally the Monarch mk2.

I would place the very impressive Monarch mk2 at the level of a "U12T". That is saying ALOT. This IEM punches into $2k level (!).

The Aroma Jewel is simply the best IEM I have heard, but both the Jewel & my Indigo are still at a bit higher level in the trebles detail. The Monarch are very close. Similar in soundstage and excellent tonality and sound.


I believe this amp board and Amp12EXN have an edge on upper range detailing over amp13, but not by much, so would be a preference thing.


The Truth is, the bottom line, last definitive measuring device we have, IS OUR EARS. It has the ultimate final say, not some straight line of one parameter on a screen.
Software is only programming, it is not circuit engineering for optimal SMD device performance.


I would respectfully point out that this view is unfortunately tooooo theoretical....
The SMD devices that are performing these functions are not theoretical perfect performers.
Their parameters, proximity, and placement on multiple layer circuit boards are another field of engineering that is taken into account.

Real world issues will necessitate many more mathematical occurrences going on.


This is a good example of engineering thinking only in the theoretical, and finally having to face a real world , realtime issue.


Apologies, but this is a bit too general of a statement. On the face of it, it is ridiculous. The statement is like air as it pertains to no specific scenario and is just not focused to any parameter to clarify .
Every single electronic component has specific charts of parameter/performance change due to various specified conditions.
This statement is a regurgitation of "theoretical performance" not real world performance, which will always encounter the reality of the circuits performance and errors.
Do not be stuck on the theoretical. This realtime, real world audio, is not the static software world, which only relies on "ones and zeros".
Literally every audio company will elaborate to you about thier own specific "burn in" scenarios. We have desktop dacs that need 2 weeks plugged in for thier dac chips to "settle".
That's why the statement is much to ambiguous.


Its just math. It can represent many things, but only one aspect at a time. Dont be fooled by it.


Sorry, but you are not an ibasso electrical engineer to note the parameter changes, and which of them will affect the sound.
For instance, the battery optimizations could affect the dac chips.
I am getting very much better battery and less heat on last firmware.
That in itself may change audible performance, which we won't know the specifics about.

Very well stated, and articulated!

"They don't understand what they don't understand."

Yeah, that's very deep, you found the mystical meaning, the hidden truth that only reveals itself to the initiated ones.
It's quite ironic to say something like that when you make things up.

Nothing that I share (as trying to be helpful) is made up, and I could cite proof should I want to argue with you, but I told you I was not getting into a debate about it because of the very direction this thread has moved to upon your combative (passive aggressive) comments. Nor was I even referring to you in those comments; if you felt the need to become defensive, that's on you. In my last post to you I told you I was ignoring you. Not because I don't like you, or am childish, or etc... but because you speak in such a combative way and refute (seems like) everything, that I wanted to avoid animosity on this thread, and hoped that you would either move on to another topic, or just move on. I try and stay pleasant and normally I am.

BTW! I am in temperature controls, which is a mixture of software engineering, and hardware engineering.... But it doesn't matter, just like it doesn't that you are a software engineer, whether you say trust me or not.

I would prefer it if you moved on to another topic that is less toxic if you don't mind?! Or, since you don't seem to actually be interested in this thread, you could just move on. One never knows when that ban-hammer will strike from above.

 

[samandhi]

It's all personal preference
When looking into the ThieAudio Monarch Mk II I noticed the opinion below
He clearly thinks different as you do
Nevertheless I hope I can try a pair one day
Other option is catch & release or ... maybe keep them
Now I own UM Mest Mk II & U12T and maybe their just to close to own all ...
.
But finally if our ears like what the hear ...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/thieaudio-monarch-mkii-experience.962446/

I generally like to have all of my gear contrasting/complimenting the others, that way none of them sound alike... Well not totally true. When I first got the Hifiman HE400S (not the 400, 400I, or 400SE), I wanted something that sounded like them in an IEM; which turned out to be the P1 for me. Most times, though I am not looking for something that is simply better than the last one I had, but something unique to my collection.

Like that C9. You could send that one over my way if you chose to?! LOL

 

[AnalogandDigital]

I generally like to have all of my gear contrasting/complimenting the others, that way none of them sound alike... Well not totally true. When I first got the Hifiman HE400S (not the 400, 400I, or 400SE), I wanted something that sounded like them in an IEM; which turned out to be the P1 for me. Most times, though I am not looking for something that is simply better than the last one I had, but something unique to my collection.

Like that C9. You could send that one over my way if you chose to?! LOL

I own U6T, U12T , U18S and Fourté
So more than enough 64 Audio and the first 3 will leave probably overtime
Next UM Mest Mk II
Elysian Acoustics Labs X
Oriolus Traillii
Jewel probably later on
Suppose that's more than enough
But I enjoy each pair to be honest
The C9 is really awesome with the DX300 and with the N8ii it's just stunning as a combo

 

[Maxx134]

It's all personal preference
When looking into the ThieAudio Monarch Mk II I noticed the opinion below
He clearly thinks different as you do
Nevertheless I hope I can try a pair one day
Other option is catch & release or ... maybe keep them
Now I own UM Mest Mk II & U12T and maybe their just to close to own all ...
.
But finally if our ears like what the hear ...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/thieaudio-monarch-mkii-experience.962446/

Could be the ear tips. That review prefers the U12T. The U12T has a different "BA" bass.

I did not focus on how refined the bass was, only the overall sonic image..
I did not have the U12T currently to compare, but is was my fav for a long time.

My reasoning is that both of them were similarly a slight step down in the trebles resolve to my Indigo and the Traillii, at the time I owned the U12T.
Similar in soundstage, and for much cheaper the Monarch mk2 is in similar enough league.

If I was to be critical, I'm not sure if I would pick the U12T for reason of the modules choices, because it's weaknes, to me, is that it doesn't have "DD" bass.

I prefer "DD" bass over any "BA" bass so far, which is reasoning I would prefer the Monarch overall. So yes, it's a preference thing.

The "EXT" is also a great IEM with a great "DD" driver, and I feel superior to both Monarch mk2 & U12T, but I do not care for it slight excessive upper air spectrum.

IMO, If you already own the UM Mest Mk II & U12T I would not look at Monarch mk2 as an upgrade (sidegrade).

I am pretty settled on my Indigo, and after hearing others it just gets closer and closer to being a preference over performance.

 

[samandhi]

Could be the ear tips. That review prefers the U12T. The U12T has a different "BA" bass.

I did not focus on how refined the bass was, only the overall sonic image..
I did not have the U12T currently to compare, but is was my fav for a long time.

My reasoning is that both of them were similarly a slight step down in the trebles resolve to my Indigo and the Traillii, at the time I owned the U12T.
Similar in soundstage, and for much cheaper the Monarch mk2 is in similar enough league.

If I was to be critical, I'm not sure if I would pick the U12T for reason of the modules choices, because it's weaknes, to me, is that it doesn't have "DD" bass.

I prefer "DD" bass over any "BA" bass so far, which is reasoning I would prefer the Monarch overall. So yes, it's a preference thing.

The "EXT" is also a great IEM with a great "DD" driver, and I feel superior to both Monarch mk2 & U12T, but I do not care for it slight excessive upper air spectrum.

If you already own the UM Mest Mk II & U12T I would not look at Monarch mk2 as an upgrade.

I am pretty settled on my Indigo, after hearing others it gets closer and closer to being a preference over performance.

I can't say that I prefer "BA bass" either, but then again I really like its uniqueness; as well as ortho bass. They all three have a place in my camp, and for different reasons (ortho being probably my overall favorite).

The T800, for instance are tuned very well for me. Yes, it has BA bass, but it is closer to DD than typical BA in the bass. I would go as far as saying that that also holds true for the treble. IMO these don't really have that typical BA timbre. I liked them a bit better than the DUNU SA6 because of the detail retrieval, and that they are a crossover(less) design, which is pretty great as far as I am concerned.

 

[samandhi]

I own U6T, U12T , U18S and Fourté
So more than enough 64 Audio and the first 3 will leave probably overtime
Next UM Mest Mk II
Elysian Acoustics Labs X
Oriolus Traillii
Jewel probably later on
Suppose that's more than enough
But I enjoy each pair to be honest
The C9 is really awesome with the DX300 and with the N8ii it's just stunning as a combo

So then, I take it that you prefer the N8ii with the C9 over the DX300 and C9 more?

 

[horatiu]

.

 

[AnalogandDigital]

Could be the ear tips. That review prefers the U12T. The U12T has a different "BA" bass.

I did not focus on how refined the bass was, only the overall sonic image..
I did not have the U12T currently to compare, but is was my fav for a long time.

My reasoning is that both of them were similarly a slight step down in the trebles resolve to my Indigo and the Traillii, at the time I owned the U12T.
Similar in soundstage, and for much cheaper the Monarch mk2 is in similar enough league.

If I was to be critical, I'm not sure if I would pick the U12T for reason of the modules choices, because it's weaknes, to me, is that it doesn't have "DD" bass.

I prefer "DD" bass over any "BA" bass so far, which is reasoning I would prefer the Monarch overall. So yes, it's a preference thing.

The "EXT" is also a great IEM with a great "DD" driver, and I feel superior to both Monarch mk2 & U12T, but I do not care for it slight excessive upper air spectrum.

IMO, If you already own the UM Mest Mk II & U12T I would not look at Monarch mk2 as an upgrade (sidegrade).

I am pretty settled on my Indigo, and after hearing others it just gets closer and closer to being a preference over performance.

That's what I mean
There's a sound preference and it depends on so many things
Being it the audio file, the cable, the DAP and IEM itself
Rests your environment, your emotions, how fit you are
So many things that have effect on what we hear at a certain moment
If your happy with the UM Indigo your all set
Now I noticed my preference sound changed in the last 2 years meaning more Treble and Bass as I was looking into previously
My Mest Mk II where my least loved pair but now they are growing on me
Might have to do with burn in ... but no clue if that's the case
They just sound more to my sound preference of today

 

[Maxx134]

Headfi is a big place for everyone. No one needs to be excluded. There is even sound-science forums here.

Constructive criticism is a good thing. Strengthens and toughenes.
In an age were there is becoming too much sensitivity of feelings/emotions, intread of higher thought and mental strength & fortitude. Think like "Spock".

Should be no reasons for extreme actions.