DX220 A new view to your music. *** LATEST FW: 1.19 Local *** Link for User Guide 1st Page.
Jun 21, 2019 at 7:54 AM Post #5,326 of 13,478
Hey everyone, some gain questions for the layman.

Following the standard advice of setting gain as low as possible, I have been running my DX220 on low gain since I opened the box. I'm listening mostly with B&W P9s, which will always favor slightly recessed mids. Nothing terrible, but its for sure a characteristic of these headphones. On a whim I bumped up to high gain today, and I may be crazy but I perceive a definite lifting of the mids and perhaps even the highs. Is there any technical reason this would be happening, or am I for sure imagining things (tried my best to volume match by ear, still hear the lift).

Might it have something to do with difference impedance in different frequency spectrums reacting to the higher gain?

I know nothing :)
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 8:15 AM Post #5,327 of 13,478
Hey everyone, some gain questions for the layman.

Following the standard advice of setting gain as low as possible, I have been running my DX220 on low gain since I opened the box. I'm listening mostly with B&W P9s, which will always favor slightly recessed mids. Nothing terrible, but its for sure a characteristic of these headphones. On a whim I bumped up to high gain today, and I may be crazy but I perceive a definite lifting of the mids and perhaps even the highs. Is there any technical reason this would be happening, or am I for sure imagining things (tried my best to volume match by ear, still hear the lift).

Might it have something to do with difference impedance in different frequency spectrums reacting to the higher gain?

I know nothing :)

Yes for sure the sound gets softer as you shift high to low.

Low is more detail more fatiguing at times,
But sounds awesome with strellia amp8.

Just can’t get them off my head :)
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 8:39 AM Post #5,328 of 13,478
Jun 21, 2019 at 8:57 AM Post #5,329 of 13,478
Hey everyone, some gain questions for the layman..

Well, since you asked me personally :p

Indeed, different amounts of juice (to use the technical term) being sent out to the IEMs seems to bring about different characteristics, depending on the gain setting used.
There's others on here who can supply technical explanations in eye-watering detail, but for now I can simply confirm that this Is A Thing :)
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 9:05 AM Post #5,330 of 13,478
Well, since you asked me personally :p

Indeed, different amounts of juice (to use the technical term) being sent out to the IEMs seems to bring about different characteristics, depending on the gain setting used.
There's others on here who can supply technical explanations in eye-watering detail, but for now I can simply confirm that this Is A Thing :)

Ha! Well done :) Thanks for the insight!
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 10:21 AM Post #5,331 of 13,478

A little song to celebrate today's delivery :)
AMP9 pic.jpg
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 10:30 AM Post #5,332 of 13,478
First impressions of the AMP9 (with DX220 and IT01 for now):

1) it looks lovely (am I shallow?) :p

2) I would echo what others have said; a more warm, intimate and organic signature.
Soundstage seems more closed in than with AMP1 Mk II; however, this is part of the whole 'intimate feel' thing, and also we'll see how this changes with burn-in and different IEMs.

3) I was just listening to "Down to the river to pray" from the 'O Brother, Where Art Thou' soundtrack (24-96 HDTracks FLAC version).
Really impressed by the rich and textured timbre of the vocals, both male and female. That definitely stood out to me.
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 10:51 AM Post #5,333 of 13,478
Edit: I may have misinterpreted what another poster was saying which triggered my post below, but I'll leave it for now. Sorry if I did misunderstand and essentially went off on a tirade for no reason (wouldn't be the first time LOL)

That is essentially an audio myth that having more power available than is being used provides some kind of benefit (unless the amp has no headroom for dynamic peaks or is so poorly designed that as it reaches it's full capacity it starts to distort and become unstable). One day I was having coffee near where I worked and I happen to overhear a conversation between two men beside me and I joined in. One of them had just returned from China where he had been running the full technical oversight of a Bose production facility. The other gentleman turned out to be a very experienced audio engineer/designer who knew head-fi well as he had been designing amplification circuits and power supplies for some pretty heavy hitters we all know. We of course got to discussing what really has the most impactful influence on an amplifiers ability to handle a load and when all things were done properly they both suggested that stable power supplies were far more important than lots of unused power waiting. The one person (not the Bose dude) specialized in building power supplies for audio applications and we had quite a good chat.

So the notion that having lots of unused power capacity matters does not hold up, not just from that conversation of course, I have never heard of evidence that suggests otherwise and over the years here I have had the opportunity to learn from people who actually are engineers and know what they are talking about. I know this is sound science stuff, and I apologize for this, but I think that it is important enough to at least start a dialogue about this myth wherever it creeps up. It isn't done to be challenging or denigrate others, but new members may get the impression that somehow it is an established fact that you need gobs of extra power waiting in storage. Once the pipes are at full capacity driving a load what isn't travelling directly to the load is not a factor, it is simply static power. Again, you need capacity to handle dynamic peaks, and yes there could be poorly designed amplification circuits that are distressed as they approach their operating ceiling, but it should not be over-represented as a guaranteed fact.

Point in hand. So I am using my FiiO Q5 AM3D module now driving the Edition X V2 from the 3.5mm input. We are talking mW of power here, not watts. I have the Q5 volume dial at close to full out, not quite but close. I have also just a few minutes ago used the same headphone connected via speaker tap cable to my 180Watt NAD M3 amps speaker terminals (it has no headphone inputs) which is stable down to 4ohms. So with all that power on tap and unused nothing sounding different or better that I could hear and this is orders of magnitude more power.

Edit 2: I'll add another data point of reference that may be familiar to some. Years back when I purchased an Asgard2 I was a little worried as the headphone I was using most of the time required me to have the amp at almost full so I emailed Schiit and one of the principles responded and told me that there would be no worries and while the amp was basically being used at full capacity the stability would be fine and should have no audible impact on the sound.

I think what may be a confounding aspect in these conversations is that it is highly likely that in many cases amplifiers with larger power output have decent power supplies and the overall designs may be better so that when people hear their headphone sounding great they sometimes may ascribe the sound improvement to all the extra power that is there waiting when the stability of the power supply design (and delivery architecture) is actually what really matters. Really sorry for going OT and posting such a long-winded post, but I just think it is worth responding to sometimes. I don't always do this, just sometimes. My apology again for being OT and I hope I haven't been over the top while presenting my thoughts.
 
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Jun 21, 2019 at 12:11 PM Post #5,334 of 13,478
Edit: I may have misinterpreted what another poster was saying which triggered my post below, but I'll leave it for now. Sorry if I did misunderstand and essentially went off on a tirade for no reason (wouldn't be the first time LOL)

That is essentially an audio myth that having more power available than is being used provides some kind of benefit (unless the amp has no headroom for dynamic peaks or is so poorly designed that as it reaches it's full capacity it starts to distort and become unstable). One day I was having coffee near where I worked and I happen to overhear a conversation between two men beside me and I joined in. One of them had just returned from China where he had been running the full technical oversight of a Bose production facility. The other gentleman turned out to be a very experienced audio engineer/designer who knew head-fi well as he had been designing amplification circuits and power supplies for some pretty heavy hitters we all know. We of course got to discussing what really has the most impactful influence on an amplifiers ability to handle a load and when all things were done properly they both suggested that stable power supplies were far more important than lots of unused power waiting. The one person (not the Bose dude) specialized in building power supplies for audio applications and we had quite a good chat.

So the notion that having lots of unused power capacity matters does not hold up, not just from that conversation of course, I have never heard of evidence that suggests otherwise and over the years here I have had the opportunity to learn from people who actually are engineers and know what they are talking about. I know this is sound science stuff, and I apologize for this, but I think that it is important enough to at least start a dialogue about this myth wherever it creeps up. It isn't done to be challenging or denigrate others, but new members may get the impression that somehow it is an established fact that you need gobs of extra power waiting in storage. Once the pipes are at full capacity driving a load what isn't travelling directly to the load is not a factor, it is simply static power. Again, you need capacity to handle dynamic peaks, and yes there could be poorly designed amplification circuits that are distressed as they approach their operating ceiling, but it should not be over-represented as a guaranteed fact.

Point in hand. So I am using my FiiO Q5 AM3D module now driving the Edition X V2 from the 3.5mm input. We are talking mW of power here, not watts. I have the Q5 volume dial at close to full out, not quite but close. I have also just a few minutes ago used the same headphone connected via speaker tap cable to my 180Watt NAD M3 amps speaker terminals (it has no headphone inputs) which is stable down to 4ohms. So with all that power on tap and unused nothing sounding different or better that I could hear and this is orders of magnitude more power.

Edit 2: I'll add another data point of reference that may be familiar to some. Years back when I purchased an Asgard2 I was a little worried as the headphone I was using most of the time required me to have the amp at almost full so I emailed Schiit and one of the principles responded and told me that there would be no worries and while the amp was basically being used at full capacity the stability would be fine and should have no audible impact on the sound.

I think what may be a confounding aspect in these conversations is that it is highly likely that in many cases amplifiers with larger power output have decent power supplies and the overall designs may be better so that when people hear their headphone sounding great they sometimes may ascribe the sound improvement to all the extra power that is there waiting when the stability of the power supply design (and delivery architecture) is actually what really matters. Really sorry for going OT and posting such a long-winded post, but I just think it is worth responding to sometimes. I don't always do this, just sometimes. My apology again for being OT and I hope I haven't been over the top while presenting my thoughts.
I've also never understood why having more power would make any difference if you already had enough.
As far as my memory of university electronics modules (mechanical engineering degree) goes you can't push current, it is drawn, and voltage will determine the volume of a headphone.
So if a headphone takes 2v to be loud enough and draws 0.1 amps then your amp needs to deliver 0.2watts at whatever impedance the headphones are rated at to drive it fully. If you have an amp that can supply 0.2watts or 20watts at that impedance the headphones will still require 2v to get loud enough and draw 0.2watts.

To add to this I believe if your amp could not deliver 0.1amps in this example then it would not be able to reach 2v output at the specific impedance and so wouldn't drive your headphones loud enough.

I know impedance varies across frequency range so it is more transient than my example above in reality, but would love for someone to tell me my understanding is wrong so I can understand how having more power than is required to reach the desired volume has an effect on how the headphones are driven.

Edit: sorry for being so off topic, genuinely curious though.
 
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Jun 21, 2019 at 12:39 PM Post #5,335 of 13,478
Distortion. That is why more power is good - in relation to what you are driving. The lower you stay in the power curve, the lower you stay in the distortion range. This has been proven years ago and I am surprised that any designer would not bring this up and the dynamic peaks that come in, that can go up into the higher distortion range as more power is needed in peaks. So the cleaner the power, the better the sound. If someone is a designer and doesn't bring this up, I would question their credentials.
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 12:43 PM Post #5,336 of 13,478
...

I know impedance varies across frequency range so it is more transient than my example above in reality, but would love for someone to tell me my understanding is wrong so I can understand how having more power than is required to reach the desired volume has an effect on how the headphones are driven.

Edit: sorry for being so off topic, genuinely curious though.
Going OT is the lifeblood of head-fi threads :) or they would get ever so dull. Your understanding mirrors mine.
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 12:44 PM Post #5,337 of 13,478
Distortion. That is why more power is good - in relation to what you are driving. The lower you stay in the power curve, the lower you stay in the distortion range. This has been proven years ago and I am surprised that any designer would not bring this up and the dynamic peaks that come in, that can go up into the higher distortion range as more power is needed in peaks. So the cleaner the power, the better the sound. If someone is a designer and doesn't bring this up, I would question their credentials.
I'll PM you my response as I just don't want to side track the thread even more.
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 12:49 PM Post #5,338 of 13,478
Also, more power prevents clipping from higher intensity passages in a song that need more power. It is always good to have excess power in audio.
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 12:54 PM Post #5,339 of 13,478
Distortion. That is why more power is good - in relation to what you are driving. The lower you stay in the power curve, the lower you stay in the distortion range. This has been proven years ago and I am surprised that any designer would not bring this up and the dynamic peaks that come in, that can go up into the higher distortion range as more power is needed in peaks. So the cleaner the power, the better the sound. If someone is a designer and doesn't bring this up, I would question their credentials.
Another very important factor in amplification is the input signal level that is fed into the circuit. Starting with a very low amplitude signal will require greater amplification to achieve the listening level desired versus a higher amplitude signal. The gain setting comes in great use here on our DX220's - I have found, and would expect most others have as well, that with some music files I have to bump up to the high setting to avoid maxing out the volume which is not good if you want to preserve some headroom above the normal listening level to avoid clipping and distortion. Most of the time I am on the mid gain setting and volume around 66 in Mango Mode (106 in Android) which is generally enjoyable for me with well recorded music.

Just a few thoughts I had while reading the posts above.

Cheers,
Tim
 
Jun 21, 2019 at 1:41 PM Post #5,340 of 13,478
Hey everyone, some gain questions for the layman.

Following the standard advice of setting gain as low as possible, I have been running my DX220 on low gain since I opened the box. I'm listening mostly with B&W P9s, which will always favor slightly recessed mids. Nothing terrible, but its for sure a characteristic of these headphones. On a whim I bumped up to high gain today, and I may be crazy but I perceive a definite lifting of the mids and perhaps even the highs. Is there any technical reason this would be happening, or am I for sure imagining things (tried my best to volume match by ear, still hear the lift).

Might it have something to do with difference impedance in different frequency spectrums reacting to the higher gain?

I know nothing :)

What you are hearing is dynamics. I had mine on all three gain settings for a couple of days each and eventually settled on high. I also asked Paul about it to confirm my findings. The higher the gain setting, the more dynamic the music will be.
 

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