DX220 A new view to your music. *** LATEST FW: 1.19 Local *** Link for User Guide 1st Page.
Dec 8, 2019 at 9:13 AM Post #9,331 of 13,478
Hello, iBasso dx200 standard sounds too flat for my tastes, I am curious if dx220 with amp1 mk II sounds the same?
I am looking for a new dap, after returning Fiio M11 Pro, that had too warm medium frequencies, and the instruments sounding too close to the face.
In my budget, I choose between new Fiio X7 mk.2 + AM3D THX module, new iBasso dx200 and resealed Ibasso dx220(opened for test). What do you reccomend?
 
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Dec 8, 2019 at 9:19 AM Post #9,332 of 13,478
Hello, iBasso dx200 standard sounds too flat for my tastes, I am curious if dx220 with amp1 mk II sounds the same?
I am looking for a new dap, after returning Fiio M11 Pro, that had too warm medium frequencies, and the instruments sounding too close to the face.
In my budget, I choose between Fiio X7 mk.2 + new AM3D THX module, new iBasso dx200 and resealed Ibasso dx220(opened for test). What do you reccomend?
I haven’t heard the Fiio, but owning DX200 & DX220, stock Amp is much better in DX220 + the big screen and better OS makes the 2nd a no brained IMHO
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 10:54 AM Post #9,333 of 13,478
I am looking for a new dap, after returning Fiio M11 Pro, that had too warm medium frequencies, and the instruments sounding too close to the face.

Although I have not heard the Pro variant, I was able to audition the M11 and I had the same impression as you are, of them being on your face kind of sound. Which kind of put me off as well.

While the DX220 sounds a bit close to the face as well (Mango OS) it is still more open sounding and airy compared to M11.

Between the Mango OS and Android I preferred the SQ on the Android because for me it is more airy, more open sounding, and more detailed. I am not sure on why they sound different given that they are of the same unit/materials etc. But yeah, I prefer the Android.

Android’s UI is much smoother too compared to Mango OS.

Please do take this with a grain of salt. Hehe.
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 10:55 AM Post #9,334 of 13,478
Hello, iBasso dx200 standard sounds too flat for my tastes, I am curious if dx220 with amp1 mk II sounds the same?
I am looking for a new dap, after returning Fiio M11 Pro, that had too warm medium frequencies, and the instruments sounding too close to the face.
In my budget, I choose between new Fiio X7 mk.2 + AM3D THX module, new iBasso dx200 and resealed Ibasso dx220(opened for test). What do you reccomend?

Try another module, AMP8 or Tube AMP9 for DX200.
I also have Fiio X7ii with stock AM3A module, its sound signature could be called "cold", thinner and brighter than DX209, maybe a bit greater soundstage but far inferior bass quality.
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 10:57 AM Post #9,335 of 13,478
Anyone tried Spotify with the screen off and control the music with PC? After listening for 10-15', my DX200 got disconnected to the internet and I have to turn on the screen again so that Spotify recognizes my DX200 again.
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 12:43 PM Post #9,336 of 13,478
Some people reported that Android and Mango OS sound different. Why is it happening and is it a big deal ?
To my ears any differences are subtle at best - and I prefer Mango Mode and use it 98% of the time. Could just be the power of suggestion that predisposes us to believe Mango OS is better since that idea has been stated since the earliest days of the DX220 release...

Could I pick which is which in a ABX test? Maybe, but probably not.

From a technical standpoint I would not expect any differences between Android and Mango modes in how the music is generated - decoding files/converting from digital to analog should be identical and then the analog signal is passed through the same amplification circuits to the outputs. Are there different background processes running and associated system workload? For sure - but that should not have any impact on the music stream from the digital to analog output signal part of the equation. At least not to my thinking.

Any other thoughts on this out there?

Cheers,
Tim
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 1:27 PM Post #9,337 of 13,478
From a technical standpoint I would not expect any differences between Android and Mango modes in how the music is generated - decoding files/converting from digital to analog should be identical and then the analog signal is passed through the same amplification circuits to the outputs. Are there different background processes running and associated system workload? For sure - but that should not have any impact on the music stream from the digital to analog output signal part of the equation. At least not to my thinking.


It has to be depending on how software is interpreting audio signals. Yes it should sound the same, but it is absolutely not. I was thinking I'm going mad, on my output devices, even if I do blind test with my friends, they always point that mango os sounds just nice, bigger soundstage, mode detail and less clinical sound comparing to Android Os. Last time when I was doing same test with Ibasso dx207, differences were subtle with little favour to Android Mango.
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 1:48 PM Post #9,338 of 13,478
Actually, from a technical standpoint, it would be impossible for a program to do reproduce the same sound as another.

It is ok that you can not tell the differences, because you are not meant to be able to. However, there are people with first of all, extremely good gears, experiences, and good ears....who can tell the differences

why, you would ask ? Because 1 and 0 is simply a Coding or a language. Without an interpreter, the differences in languages between 2 person is incomprehensible. In this case, Digital information of binary coding 1 and 0 is another language which differentiate itself from Analog Waves being generated with infinite variations of amplitude, frequencies....etc....with each different interpreter between 2 languages, there is never the exact same translations. It is simply impossible, period. For example, Mike is translating between Chinese to English for Trump, his wordings, sentences, and even interval timing would be different than Ashley who is doing the same thing. However, the outcome would generally be similar, to translate into English. The same goes for different Playback programs, firmware or OS or each software. You will get music reproduced, but to replicate it exactly the same from one to another, it simply is Impossible.

we can get even further, but this is the simplest way I can explain to everyone as of Why and How different playback app, and firmware is and will never sound exactly the same.
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 2:06 PM Post #9,339 of 13,478
It has to be depending on how software is interpreting audio signals. Yes it should sound the same, but it is absolutely not. I was thinking I'm going mad, on my output devices, even if I do blind test with my friends, they always point that mango os sounds just nice, bigger soundstage, mode detail and less clinical sound comparing to Android Os. Last time when I was doing same test with Ibasso dx207, differences were subtle with little favour to Android Mango.
Well, software doesn't really interpret the audio signals but rather software algorithms together with the DAC chips convert the digital data back into an analog audio signal which is then amplified in the AMP module before being output. Now if iBasso has written or utilized different conversion algorithms, coded into the software, for Android versus Mango then maybe that explains things. It would be unusual to have different algorithms to do the same basic thing of generating the analog signal prior to amplification - not saying it's impossible or unlikely.

Would be interesting to see scientific, empirical data (yes - I spent my entire 33+ year career as an engineer) comparing the analog output signal from Android versus Mango to understand if there are truly measurable differences. If there are no measurable differences then I would have to conclude it's not real. I have read many similar discussions (as I am sure many others have) related to IEM cables, sampling rates, audio file formats, burn-in, etc - and one thing is evident - comparing audio is very difficult at best.

Anyways, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know!" :ksc75smile::ksc75smile::ksc75smile:

Enjoy the music and whichever mode floats your boat.

Cheers,
Tim
 
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Dec 8, 2019 at 2:49 PM Post #9,340 of 13,478
I guess we are just trying to express it in layman terms. But the algorithms alone isn’t all that you think it is. It rely on the timing as well as the computation and errors feedback with different DSP processing as well, before it could get to your DAC and get converted.

MangoOS is different as it is based on Linux where as Mango player in Android is based on Android compatible. Therefore it is impossible to even have the same set of algorithms to behave the same as it was on another Os due to other compatible task together in it entirety . Therefore it is not possible for them both to sound the same.

even different playback apps using the same Os would sound different from one another. Let alone different OS in it entirety.

the most obvious differences between Os as you can already see is Android and IOS. Same hardware and same tasks, Android always consume more resources and so on.... it is beyond my knowledge to go further. I think @Lurker0 would be the person to ask why different apps would sound different ? Idk
 
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Dec 8, 2019 at 3:55 PM Post #9,341 of 13,478
I guess we are just trying to express it in layman terms. But the algorithms alone isn’t all that you think it is. It rely on the timing as well as the computation and errors feedback with different DSP processing as well, before it could get to your DAC and get converted.

MangoOS is different as it is based on Linux where as Mango player in Android is based on Android compatible. Therefore it is impossible to even have the same set of algorithms to behave the same as it was on another Os due to other compatible task together in it entirety . Therefore it is not possible for them both to sound the same.

even different playback apps using the same Os would sound different from one another. Let alone different OS in it entirety.

the most obvious differences between Os as you can already see is Android and IOS. Same hardware and same tasks, Android always consume more resources and so on.... it is beyond my knowledge to go further. I think @Lurker0 would be the person to ask why different apps would sound different ? Idk

It is not related to this discussion, but to be precise, Android also has Linux-based kernel.
 
Dec 8, 2019 at 5:27 PM Post #9,343 of 13,478
MangoOS is different as it is based on Linux where as Mango player in Android is based on Android compatible. Therefore it is impossible to even have the same set of algorithms to behave the same as it was on another Os due to other compatible task together in it entirety . Therefore it is not possible for them both to sound the same.

Well, that's quite a bold assertion without having internal knowledge how exactly the signal processing is done and how the software is implemented.
The software just handles the digital part before the DAC. The analoge signal after the DAC is processed in hardware and this is the same for Android and MangoOS.

Therefore I disagree, because the player software just reads the file and converts it into a bytestream to feed the DAC. And i would assume that both players (Android Player and the MangoOS Player) are behaving in the same way, that e.g. a bytestream from a FLAC file is bytewise identical.
Surely both players can be based on the same conversion routines and software libraries, especially when both OS are based on linux (Android is actually also based on Linux!). The timing of the OS might be sligthly different, but how do you know if the timing is really critical here without having developed the player or having implemented software to feed a DAC?
I assume that the software just has to ensure that the bytestream doesn't get stuck and has enough buffer to always feed the DAC.

Exactly only the iBasso engineers and software developers can confirm if there are differences between the Android Player and the MangoOS Player that could result in a different bytestream. Or if some sound processing is done in software and not in hardware. Personally i don't think it is.
 
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Dec 8, 2019 at 6:02 PM Post #9,344 of 13,478
Well, that's quite a bold assertion without having internal knowledge how exactly the signal processing is done and how the software is implemented.
The software just handles the digital part before the DAC. The analoge signal after the DAC is processed in hardware and this is the same for Android and MangoOS.

Therefore I disagree, because the player software just reads the file and converts it into a bytestream to feed the DAC. And i would assume that both players (Android Player and the MangoOS Player) are behaving in the same way, that e.g. a bytestream from a FLAC file is bytewise identical.
Surely both players can be based on the same conversion routines and software libraries, especially when both OS are based on linux (Andoid is actually also based on Linux). The timing of the OS might be sligthly different, but how do you know if the timing is really critical here without having developed the player or having implemented software to feed a DAC?
I assume that the software just has to ensure that the bytestream doesn't get stuck and has enough buffer to always feed the DAC.

Exactly only the iBasso engineers and software developers can confirm if there are differences between the Android Player and the MangoOS Player that could result in a different bytestream. Or if some sound processing is done in software and not in hardware. Personally i don't think it is.

timing is always the critical parts of any digital things, and everything digital, period.

It isn’t as simple as you think it is. I don’t know much about the base OS and it coding, but I know enough about digital music and what it is to be saying that. A little off timing, different set of algorithms, and even Different OS would require different ways the whole system behave in compatibility in it entirety. In some way that even New firmware without intentional tweaking of the algorithms itself can still sound different.

but then again, you don’t have to be able to tell the differences because you are never meant to be. It doesn’t meant that it doesn’t happen.

I would tag @Windows X in here as he is developer of Fidelizer program. It basically makes the OS handling everything more fluidly and efficiently and also have observable performances gain. I witness it both on my Windows 10 PC and Dx200. He maybe able to tell us some things as of why or how ?

the only one thing I am so sure of is that different app, and different OS would always sound different, so technically sound performances can never sound the same from different apps or OS. Even sometimes when I install different useless Apps or software in my PC, the differences could be observed. So logically I would just say this, MangoOS is purely handling music decoding and nothing else, where as in Android, even-though the same set of algorithms are being used, the handling would be different, and the whole thing would behave different which would alter the sound.

so what I really want to say is that, it is impossible to have different playback apps to perform the same in opposed of some people who thinks that Technically there should not be any differences.

However, allows me to stop this Can of worms. I don’t pay much attentions to subtles changes anymore, and have begin to generally accept what is acceptable nowadays. For example, I am tired of chasing the differences in cables materials...exotic metals...etc....and settled for all thing OCC as long as this OCC copper is authentic, and that is good enough.

There is nothing perfect, and when enough is enough, that is it. Since all thing is imperfect, you can always keep on chasing the rabbit hole, and it goes far beyond “the sky is the limits”. Hell, I just learned 2 new things of what Audiophiles have claimed all along, but isn’t measured. It is about why different metal would sound different, and also why cryogenic metal would also improve upon this. Performances....but again, god....please allows me to stay content at this limit .... LOL
 
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Dec 8, 2019 at 8:27 PM Post #9,345 of 13,478
However, allows me to stop this Can of worms. I don’t pay much attentions to subtles changes anymore, and have begin to generally accept what is acceptable nowadays. For example, I am tired of chasing the differences in cables materials...exotic metals...etc....and settled for all thing OCC as long as this OCC copper is authentic, and that is good enough.
AMEN brotha...

Yeah.. beside cable material, there also layering, solder etc... I started to back off, when solder material will affect SQ.. I experienced this, a jack adapter 3.5 TRS to 3.5 TRS with special tuning of soldering.. Yeah you will noticed a slight change... but then I back off, because the investment of increasing SQ is not worthy... any way, just be happy to what you have...

BTW. I am MANGO OS user for song listening, and only goes to android if transferring song.
SPOTIFY streaming doing by my smartphone.. much more flexible and simple..

The only thing I envy of Mango App on Android is the search song engine... but I already make my peace.. so just hit that random icon on MANGO OS, and let the player choose my song library...
 
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