[Jacques]

 
My DT48e 25 ohms were bought last at BH. The first few weeks I was wondering if I have been had. Patience was the key; they took time to burn and were not that uncomfortable once I got used to them. As of today, most other cans do not “sound right” to me.
 
With the Stax, they are my favorite cans. If you think there no bass, just listen to Saint-Saëns, Symphony #3 with Philippe Bélanger, second movement. The organ continuo is there, just not bloated. I many ways, the lower frequencies  are not so different than ESL or planars speakers. The wonderful midrange is not smeared by the bass. 
 
 

 

[maniacal71]

Upz for you Jacques, for speaking up. You are truly a sonus aficionado.

 

[Ishcabible]

Quote:

Yes not forgetting the K340 an the Monitor 10, The point is that Vintage is astoundingly better sounding as compared to most if not all of today's modern headphones.

I love my DT48's as much as the next guy (maybe more because I've taken the liberty to put a protective screen on the cup to protect the lettering and paint) but they really aren't as great as people say they are. Every Stax, even the SR-5, I've tried sounds more realistic, the HE500 trumps it in quite a few ways, and I could go on. The DT48's, at least my pair from the 50's, really don't sound like reality. They may have a startling midrange, but the midrange is a trifle too colored to be considered "real." One could fault the mic for this, but it tips upwards just too much for what I'd consider real. For a crude example, I listened to someone play a Selmer Super Balanced Action saxophone in awesome condition play some Dave Brubeck. I went home to listen to a few of the played songs on the DT48 (with a very warm amp to balance out the brightness) as a comparison, and it really sounded a lot brighter than reality. One could fault the mic, recording, and an infinite number of variables, but at the end of the day, it's pointless. They don't reproduce the same atmosphere as the real thing nor the true timbre. Don't get me wrong, the DT48's are wonderful, but to say they're completely realistic is a fallacy.
 
And about the bass, it really depends on the pads and system matching. On my Harman Kardon HK430 (with contour switch) and ghetto pads, they have as much bass as the HE500.
 
Oh, and before anybody asks, Maniacal71 isn't KBI. 

 

[maniacal71]

Haha Ishc, yes i'm not KBI, Thanks for your views too, In view of what you highlighted, the performance was done unmixed, and not through speakers am i right to say? And your copy of the same piece was. So in conclusion to this, I would say take a good recording of the performance and play it back. Will keep you updated on the ear pad changes on the DT48A you know where.

 

[Ishcabible]

Quote:

Haha Ishc, yes i'm not KBI, Thanks for your views too, In view of what you highlighted, the performance was done unmixed, and not through speakers am i right to say? And your copy of the same piece was. So in conclusion to this, I would say take a good recording of the performance and play it back. Will keep you updated on the ear pad changes on the DT48A you know where.

Just want to dispel any ideas. 

 
Yes it was mixed and remastered, but it was different to the point where it's really hard to blame mastering. Even live recordings sound etched and off. I could definitely record my own playing and listen and compare it against my playing against a wall, but I can't afford a mic that'd do even my horn justice, so there will be timbre differences and probably end up brighter than reality.

 

[maniacal71]

Okay, no harm done, but try the Youtube Vid of Meytal Cohem playing drums for Chop Suey, notice that the sound is different from any mastered track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjwPwQM7xzk

 

[kiteki]

 
Which one should I try DT-48 or Pioneer 10?
 
 

 

[Ishcabible]

Quote:

 
Which one should I try DT-48 or Pioneer 10?
 
 

Ideally both. 

 They both go for different things in terms of sound sig. The DT48 is a field recording/audiometry headphone through and through, so they really focus on the midrange.
 
What's with the drums in that recording? They sound really reverbed; they have like no decay at all. The cymbals are iffy too, or it might be the amp that's beside me now effing the DT48's up. (Burson HA160D really doesn't like the 5ohm DT48's. I really need to get around to putting the resistors in the plug itself.)
 
EDIT: I found my adapter. Hmm, it's still sounding quite iffy. What was your main point of the Youtube video? It doesn't sound anything like real drums, but I heartily advise anybody with DT48's to get a 120ohm impedance adapter.

 

[RexAeterna]

That's a really dangerously broad statement.

There are some truly awe-inspiring vintage cans, especially considering that they were being designed without computers: Some of the Beyers (though I was actually underwhelmed by the DT48--reality does have bass sometimes), the Pioneer Monitor 10, the Sony DR-Z6 (which is better than the DT48 and the Monitor 10)...

On the whole, though, vintage headphones sound terrible.  They are bulky, ugly, muddy sounding, and lack resolution.  As soon as you get into the midrange these days, pretty much everything is better than the bulk of vintage gear.




Yeah, because Stax hasn't been around for very long and have no idea what they're doing 

that's cause most those crappy headphones were just made for avg consumer use and were just left over speaker parts thrown into random headphone enclosures. that's another reason why most were rated 8-16ohms cause they were just speaker midranges or paper cone tweeters used as fullrange drivers. they weren't actually well designed fullrange drivers like how headphones usually are. another reason why they were known to be a pain to drive cause they needed same amount of 2.75v@8ohm@1w as speakers did from the headphone out section.

you got actually better results hooking most of those cheap headphones to speaker outputs directly. that's why most big companies like Fostex,AKG,STAX,Koss,Pioneer all experimented with different materials,technology and experimented using head dummies in anechoic chambers and diffuse field chambers to make their studio headphones as flat as possible and to sound like monitoring speakers instead of headphones. well design headphone suffers from room acoustics as well believe it or not cause they reflect out and back into the earcup but only a problem if your in a really small room. AKG and STAX used free-field equalizing which was very expensive process cause head dummy needed to be in a room flat from 20hz-20khz. beyer used free-field at one point in the dt48 line-up and like AKG switched to experiment with diffused-field equalizing. STAX stuck to free-field even to this day cause they highly believe in free-field equalizing.

headphones use computers nowadays and don't use free-field or diffused-field techniques anymore. pioneer monitor 10 and beyer dt48 is the only headphone as well to use an aluminum voice coils instead of copper. that's why they have high amount of power handling to reach crazy spl's and need more power then their specs indicate they need to hit the targeted SPL@1mw due to higher resistance in the voice coil. i found the monitor 10's best to be driven from same amps that can feed high-end low-sensitive orthodynamics headphones cause they can be pain to drive.

sorry for my wall of text. i tend to type a lot without me noticing.

 

[RexAeterna]

Which one should I try DT-48 or Pioneer 10?

depends. both are great. i own the pioneer monitor 10. i keep meaning to send it out to a friend for testing but haven't gotten around to it. they can be type headphone to get use to for a quick few seconds being on your head but after you do you can tell they do lot of things right. they need a good seal on your head as well cause sound changes so drastically moving them around on your head. the top headband since no padding if you have lots of hair can be a problem to wear for long hours. the pads are really comfty but the headband might require padding cause it can kill your scalp area for long hours and they are heavy so you might have to get use to the weight of them. they are excellent headphones though and since they're already balanced(they use a 4-core balanced 1/4'' TRS jack since it was studio standard back then) they have amazing stereo imaging and stereo separation. you would not believe they're closed headphones when you listen to them. trying both is must at least once. they are defiantly up to the same league as the other known legendary status studio headphones.

 

[joelpearce]

I've owned both.
 
The DT48 is gone, the Monitor 10 is still here.

 

[maniacal71]

Quote:

Ideally both. 

 They both go for different things in terms of sound sig. The DT48 is a field recording/audiometry headphone through and through, so they really focus on the midrange.
 
What's with the drums in that recording? They sound really reverbed; they have like no decay at all. The cymbals are iffy too, or it might be the amp that's beside me now effing the DT48's up. (Burson HA160D really doesn't like the 5ohm DT48's. I really need to get around to putting the resistors in the plug itself.)
 
EDIT: I found my adapter. Hmm, it's still sounding quite iffy. What was your main point of the Youtube video? It doesn't sound anything like real drums, but I heartily advise anybody with DT48's to get a 120ohm impedance adapter.

The drums sounds just right for metal music, they've been tuned for fast paced music. Compare with another reference class like HD600/650, then try some other headphones that have a wow factor to them. Notice how far the drums sounds or should i say diffused, notice where the microphone for the drums are placed as well. Rolling between the 3 headphones you would noticeably see that the DT48 is closest to where the microphone would be, without much diffused pick ups or cross feeds. Oh so did you notice her mistimed strike at around 3mins? Bet that with the other cans didn't pick that out so easily.
 

 

[svyr]

The drums sounds just right for metal music, they've been tuned for fast paced music. Compare with another reference class like HD600/650, then try some other headphones that have a wow factor to them. Notice how far the drums sounds or should i say diffused, notice where the microphone for the drums are placed as well. Rolling between the 3 headphones you would noticeably see that the DT48 is closest to where the microphone would be, without much diffused pick ups or cross feeds. Oh so did you notice her mistimed strike at around 3mins? Bet that with the other cans didn't pick that out so easily.

lol, keep telling yourself that...
huge sub 100hz roll-off is not normal or right for anything . Even on the new DT48e it's horrible. On the vintage 1983 dt48 8 ohm pair it was even worse. and impedance adapters won't help / neither will matching an amp.

 

[svyr]

Hahaha look who's talking, listen and the bass will be revealed and not forced at you.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT48.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT48E120Ohm.pdf




yea good luck with that, buddy, let the -30db bass be revealed to your delusions of dt48 superiority lol.

as for Monitor 10 and 10R I thought both had slight metallic qualities to the sound and relatively recessed mids, hence they were sold. (plus the comfort on them is like wearing huge braces on your head...with thinly wrapped metal headband parts digging into you skull...mmmmm)


Here are some more measurements from Tyll of the old K340 (2 pairs - bass roll-off and weird dip in mids/strange highs - serrating 10k peak)

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK340Stock.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK340DIYModifiedMorphsciA.pdf



and some stax:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR507SE11049.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR404LtdSSL0670.pdf

 

[maniacal71]

By the way, here is the frequency curve showing bass at 20hz, notice the flatline on that graph.
http://imageshack.us/f/403/20090429101844112page10.jpg/