[mootookang]

Having music on isn't the same as being deaf. Having music on is putting the driver in a more distracting environment, which would put the driver and those on the streets in more risks. Putting headphones on means the drivers would be even more isolated in their world, which increases the risks.
 
I find it a bit disturbing that kids these days would rationalize so they can listen to their music 24/7.

 

[maverickronin]

When did I ever say distraction don't have the potential to cause accidents?  I said that if you are going to condemn headphones you have to condemn other distractions as well.  Maybe I missed it, but I didn't actually see a study or an abstract at the second link.  Just a list of things far, far more dangerous than listening to headphones.
 
Link me to the actual study and I may be convinced otherwise, but I'd have to examine the methodology first.
 
And don't call me "kiddo".  I have no problem with people attacking my ideas, but don't attack me.

 

[vYu223]

Emergency sounds on the road are REALLY, REALLY LOUD. IEM's can only block about 30dB. If car horns or other emergency sirens were only 30dB, then the argument that IEM's are less safe than car stereos would be valid.
 
Hearing protection can only offer so much isolation. It can easily protect your hearing, but it can't easily prevent you from hearing anything at all.  I'll provide an example. I can't sleep at school. I've tried. I stay in my car in the parking lot, with doors closed, windows shut, earplugs (rated 25dB) in and earmuffs (rated 27dB) on, on top of that. I can't fall asleep, because I keep being woken up by cars passing by. I'm not talking about horns, alarms, loud music, etc. (although my school's parking lots get their fair share of those, too). I'm talking about cars just rolling by. The threshold for human hearing is 1dB (on average). I can still hear the cars outside, while using earplugs and earmuffs, with windows and doors closed, all at the same time!! How many decibels of isolation do all of those things provide? IEM's do not block as much sound as you think. I wear Etymotic's ER-25 custom musician's earplugs all the time, even while having conversation with others in a quiet room (I have long hair so they don't know I'm wearing earplugs), and can still hear everything that is important. I can hear conversation in a quiet room, because normal conversation is much louder than 25dB. Most everything I hear during the day is louder than 25dB.
 
Let me tell you, wearing 30, or even 35 decibels of protection on the road is NOT going to prevent you from hearing important sounds on the road. Like I said in my last post, playing the car stereo on the road = wearing IEMs, in terms of how much you're able to perceive sounds from outside. The only difference is that without IEM's, you're destroying your hearing (over time).
 
maverickronin didn't brush off the cyclist. He just simply pointed out a flaw in his reasoning. To the cyclist: I'm sorry about your incident. It was quite unfortunate. I commute by bike, too, and there have been times where a jerk would make a right turn and cut me off, without even signaling! Why can't these fools at least use a freaking turn signal?? Ahh!! But my point is this: Go to any bike forum, and they will tell you that a bell is most certainly NOT an effective means to get a driver's attention. Bells are not designed to compete with road noise. Horns and sirens, however, are. That's why you're able to hear them over the loud music from a cars stereo. Horns and sirens can be heard through the music of IEM's, as well. There's a reason why sirens hurt your ears when you're outside of the car. It's because they're so damned loud. lol
 
I actually do listen to music in the car now. I've gone to an audiologist I chose from a list on Sensaphonic's website (it had a golden ear symbol next to it - that means that a representative from Sensaphonics visits that audiologist regularly) and got a pair of ER-25s made, as I mentioned above, and wear them in the car while the speakers are turned up. My time spent in the car is now less boring. Yay! Btw, only those who have never turned on the radio in a car while on the road can cast a stone at me. Listening to any form of news or music in the car will technically distract you. Don't be a hypocrite, and use logic and reason!
 
Reacting emotionally and getting on your moral "high horse" while condemning others for being immoral may serve to make you feel more secure about your morality, but it doesn't serve well to win a logical argument. Any forms of music reaching your ears are equal in making you less aware of other sounds. Cars speakers, headphones, IEMs, whatever. Same. As long as horns and sirens are a certain degree louder than the music, you will be able to hear them. If the music is too loud, no matter which way it reaches your ears, you might not be able to hear the horns/sirens. Just remember to keep the music's volume at a sensible level. Also, the law does not accurately reflect morality. Think about California's stupid and overly paranoid gun laws.
 
EDIT: The reason why car speakers are equal to IEMs in how they affect your awareness of outside sounds is because of the way a person chooses the volume of the music. For car speakers, a person would turn the music up just enough to be able to hear the music over the road noise. For IEMs, a person would keep the volume much lower, because there is less ambient noise to compete with. However, the person still turns the music up only loud enough to hear over the ambient noise. The only difference in both scenarios is how much total dB is reaching your ears. However, the ability to hear sounds outside of the car over the music remains the same in both situations, because in both cases, the music was turned up only enough to compete with the road noise. The horns/sirens are designed to compete with road noise. So if the music is just loud enough to compete with the road noise, and if the horns/sirens are designed to compete with the road noise, then it follows that the music would not be loud enough to drown out the horns/sirens. IF you have a problem with this claim, please provide a sound, logical argument against it.

 

[mootookang]

Again, not hearing anything is not the same as hearing music in the background. Not hearing anything at all sharpens the mind, and listening to music will increase distraction and make your mind less decisive. 
 
Yes, wearing headphones would only decrease maybe about 30 dB of your hearing ability, and you can hear emergency sirens just fine even with them on. The point is, since it would take longer for your mind to understand the situation, the difference is life and death. For example, if two car crashed right in front of you, and you are given less than a second to react before collusion, the chances of you hitting the two cars would be higher because your mind is more distracted from listening to music. 
 
Your point about IEMs being the same as car speakers is also rather silly. If that is the case, then there's really no difference between open and closed headphones. Listening to sound to an open environment is not the same as having something directly delivering music to your ears, with the intend to blocking sound out. It is also pretty safe to assume that most people would not turn up their radios to the point where they are distracted to the point of wearing IEMs in their ear, because in order to block out outside noises completely, they would need to drive up the speakers to at least 130 dB, and when they're driving around with that kind of volume up, they would be pulled over by a police within 10 blocks.
 
And seriously, is not listening to music for a few hours really that painful? I know the million generations basically grew up with their heads plug into their ipods, but is not listening to your music for a while really going to kill you? We're not even asking you to not listen to music at all, listening to music through a car speaker is far more safe than listening through an IEM, since you'll be more aware of more sounds and situations that you should pay attention to when you're driving. Yeah, your music won't sound as good with the other cars zooming by you and the sirens of a fire truck, and if it really bothers you that much, just listen to your music at home, where you can't put other people's lives in danger.

 

[vYu223]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mootookang

Your point about IEMs being the same as car speakers is also rather silly. If that is the case, then there's really no difference between open and closed headphones. Listening to sound to an open environment is not the same as having something directly delivering music to your ears, with the intend to blocking sound out. It is also pretty safe to assume that most people would not turn up their radios to the point where they are distracted to the point of wearing IEMs in their ear, because in order to block out outside noises completely, they would need to drive up the speakers to at least 130 dB, and when they're driving around with that kind of volume up, they would be pulled over by a police within 10 blocks

My point is silly, huh? Thanks for the personal attack. I'll argue against your claims, but I won't tell you that your claims are silly. And there is no difference between open and closed headphones, other than the fact that with open, you would have to turn the music up louder, due to the fact that there is more ambient noise reaching the ear. The music in both cases would be turned up just enough to compete with the ambient noise, and awareness of ambient noise over the music would be the same in both cases.


Listening to headphones vs. speakers is the same. How does the direction in which the music comes from affect the driver's ability to perceive outside noises? The closer the driver (driver, meaning headphone driver or speaker driver) is to your ear, the quieter it is set. The farther away it is to your ear, the louder it is set. The locations of the sources of ambient sound do not change, and so perception remains the same in both cases.


You said: "... with the [intent] to blocking sound out" Sure, the IEMs may offer attenuation. However, 30dB is little, and the music would be turned down. Again, perception of horns/sirens is same with both speakers and IEMs.


Honestly, just how loud do you listen to IEMs? How loud do you assume the volume is that I set when I'm wearing IEMs? I listen to mine at a reasonable level, enough to compete with ambient noise that manages to get through. I accept the fact that 30dB of attenuation will not block out all ambient noise, and I would just have to live with listening to music with some ambient noise mixed in. Same goes with the car speakers. Ambient noise would be mixed in. I don't listen to music at ear-splitting levels.


You said: "... in order to block out outside noises completely..." I have already stated in my previous post that the objective is not to block out outside noises completely. It takes a hell of a lot of dB to drown out another source of noise to the point of essentially muting it. The objective is to have the music compete with the ambient sound, not to drown it out to the point of essentially silencing it. The former would imply more sensible listening levels, and the latter would, as you said, get you pulled over by a police officer.


Also, your 3rd paragraph contradicts your 2nd paragraph. In your 2nd paragraph, you agree with me that even with IEMs on, you can still hear horns/sirens. However, in your 3rd paragraph, you imply that the IEMs would be set at such an ear-splitting volume that the music being listened to would "block out outside noises completely," and if the IEMs were being listened to at a loud enough level to block out outside noises completely, then horns and sirens would also be "blocked out" - that is, drowned out by the loud music. Summary: your 2nd paragraph - IEMs, can hear horns/sirens; your 3rd paragraph - IEMs, cannot hear horns/sirens. Instead of arguing with me, you seem to be arguing with yourself, huh?


If I can't in good conscience listen to music whenever I'm in the car, then I might as well tell whoever rides in my car with me to shut the hell up, because their voices would be a distraction that could put in danger all of the lives around me. Go ahead and tell this to people who drive children in their cars. Tell this to people to drive clients for their job - do you want taxi drivers to get off the road? Tell this to those who sing in their car, whether it be alone, or a road trip song with others. Who knows? Go ahead and shame everyone who does anything that could be potentially distracting.


Please be reasonable. Like one other user has said, there are different degrees to which certain activities are distracting. Talking on a hands-free bluetooth headset is distracting. Talking without the use of a handsfree device is even more distracting. Texting is even more distracting than the two!


Hell, driving in the first place is a hazard itself. However, it is a risk that most of us take, because its benefits far outweigh the chance of horrible death it can bring upon us (the benefits are transportation of self, passengers, and things). And please. Music on the road is not as necessary as the transportation the car provides, but hell, I'm sure that on long trips, music can serve to relieve stress. That could improve a driver's ability to function! Nah, I'm not being serious with the previous sentence. But still, listening to music is not distracting enough to make it immoral.


 
Quote:

Again, not hearing anything is not the same as hearing music in the background. Not hearing anything at all sharpens the mind, and listening to music will increase distraction and make your mind less decisive. 
 
Yes, wearing headphones would only decrease maybe about 30 dB of your hearing ability, and you can hear emergency sirens just fine even with them on. The point is, since it would take longer for your mind to understand the situation, the difference is life and death. For example, if two car crashed right in front of you, and you are given less than a second to react before collusion, the chances of you hitting the two cars would be higher because your mind is more distracted from listening to music. 
 
Your point about IEMs being the same as car speakers is also rather silly. If that is the case, then there's really no difference between open and closed headphones. Listening to sound to an open environment is not the same as having something directly delivering music to your ears, with the intend to blocking sound out. It is also pretty safe to assume that most people would not turn up their radios to the point where they are distracted to the point of wearing IEMs in their ear, because in order to block out outside noises completely, they would need to drive up the speakers to at least 130 dB, and when they're driving around with that kind of volume up, they would be pulled over by a police within 10 blocks.
 
And seriously, is not listening to music for a few hours really that painful? I know the million generations basically grew up with their heads plug into their ipods, but is not listening to your music for a while really going to kill you? We're not even asking you to not listen to music at all, listening to music through a car speaker is far more safe than listening through an IEM, since you'll be more aware of more sounds and situations that you should pay attention to when you're driving. Yeah, your music won't sound as good with the other cars zooming by you and the sirens of a fire truck, and if it really bothers you that much, just listen to your music at home, where you can't put other people's lives in danger.

 

[aangen]

Not only do I drive with IEM headphones, I sometimes walk AND chew gum with them.
Am I a thrill seeker? Yes I am.
But I'll feel much safer if YOU don't do either, if it frightens you or makes you feel you might be a danger to yourself.

 

[lasraik]

Quote:

Not only do I drive with IEM headphones, I sometimes walk AND chew gum with them.
Am I a thrill seeker? Yes I am.
But I'll feel much safer if YOU don't do either, if it frightens you or makes you feel you might be a danger to yourself.

 
It's illegal in Minnesota to drive with headphones.
 
"(a) No person, while operating a motor vehicle, shall wear headphones or earphones that are used in both ears simultaneously for purposes of receiving or listening to broadcasts or reproductions from radios, tape decks, or other sound-producing or transmitting devices."

 

[LarsPT]

You people should try driving a new BMW (or any other high-end car/brand).
 
I went from a VW Golf IV to a new BMW 3 series and I almost had an accident a couple of times because it does such an impressive job blocking external noise. But then you get used to it, you realize you can no longer rely on "if it's quiet then there are no cars around me". And then, you're fine.
 
And don't forget electric cars. They produce NO noise. At first I'm sure there will be a couple of accidents because the car simply wasn't heard. But then people will keep in mind that even if there's no noise... an electric car might be passing by, so USE YOUR EYES.
 
It's the same as wearing IEMs while walking down the street and crossing the road. You have to be extra careful.
 
If you get scared a couple of times and you don't get used to it, you probably should stop wearing them. If you can cope without the hearing aid to drive properly/walk properly down the street... why not?

 

[Raguvian]

i don't see what the big deal is here.   are deaf people banned from driving just because they cannot hear?    and racing, most(really i'd say all) drivers wear custom made earplugs under their helmets.  and the speeds they drive at, certainly we must ban earplugs at the track too!!

Well there's all that stuff about how if a person loses one sense, everything else is far more perceptive so I bet a deaf person is still far more perceptive than a guy wearing IEMs while driving.

Racing drivers are also far better drivers than the average person and the same rules don't apply at the track, where there's a zero percent chance of pedestrians or cyclists getting in your way.

The plain fact that it's illegal to drive with headphones on in most places seems like it would be obvious not to do it but I guess we all break the rules somehow...

 

[glc]

Bad drivers have bad habits some of which are things like reaching for the radio controls, a phone, a BlackBerry, reading while driving, putting on make up, looking away from the road to hold conversations etc. A lot of these things tend to happen at high rates of speed or in heavy traffic. More careful drivers tend not to do these things or if they do they try not to do this when conditions requires full attention to what's happening around them.
 
FWIW, I drive with Grados on my head. I chose Grados because you can hear every single noise around you as long as the music is on low to moderate volume levels. I drive using all three mirrors and look into these mirrors every several seconds. I am always aware of what is around me and my driving is always first priority as far as everything I listed above. I have reached for the radio, ipod and phone while driving. I only do these things when I am stopped or driving on long straight stretches of highways with barely anyone around me. 
 
As far I am concerned, bad drivers and headphones generally make for worse drivers. Careful drivers and open headphones at low/moderate volume levels do not significantly impair driving skills or attentiveness.
 
Lumping every driver into one camp or the other (for or against) is a not possible and will only fuel this argument unless people start to face the fact that It's not the HEADPHONES, it's the DRIVER.

 

[Raguvian]

Quote:

Bad drivers have bad habits some of which are things like reaching for the radio controls, a phone, a BlackBerry, reading while driving, putting on make up, looking away from the road to hold conversations etc. A lot of these things tend to happen at high rates of speed or in heavy traffic. More careful drivers tend not to do these things or if they do they try not to do this when conditions requires full attention to what's happening around them.
 
FWIW, I drive with Grados on my head. I chose Grados because you can hear every single noise around you as long as the music is on low to moderate volume levels. I drive using all three mirrors and look into these mirrors every several seconds. I am always aware of what is around me and my driving is always first priority as far as everything I listed above. I have reached for the radio, ipod and phone while driving. I only do these things when I am stopped or driving on long straight stretches of highways with barely anyone around me. 
 
As far I am concerned, bad drivers and headphones generally make for worse drivers. Careful drivers and open headphones at low/moderate volume levels do not significantly impair driving skills or attentiveness.
 
Lumping every driver into one camp or the other (for or against) is a not possible and will only fuel this argument unless people start to face the fact that It's not the HEADPHONES, it's the DRIVER.

I'm not really against open back headphones at all. My problem is with the people who wear IEM's in both ears. Even one ear open is OK.
 
I've thought about wearing open back headphones while driving but cops can see your headphones way too easily and I don't need a ticket.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

It's illegal in Minnesota to drive with headphones.
 
"(a) No person, while operating a motor vehicle, shall wear headphones or earphones that are used in both ears simultaneously for purposes of receiving or listening to broadcasts or reproductions from radios, tape decks, or other sound-producing or transmitting devices."

 
No one's ask where, or arguing about if, wearing headphones is illegal in any particular jurisdiction.  What is morally right or wrong rarely overlaps with what is legal or illegal and I think its foolish to assume that something is morally wrong because of a law.
 
Quote:

I'm not really against open back headphones at all. My problem is with the people who wear IEM's in both ears. Even one ear open is OK.
 
I've thought about wearing open back headphones while driving but cops can see your headphones way too easily and I don't need a ticket.

 
And this makes my point for me.  If you grant the premise that isolation is what is dangerous about using headphones while driving then it should follow that using IEMs is worst, followed by closed, followed by open.  I don't know of any open IEMs except maybe the Baby STAX if you stretch your definitions a little.  Assuming you accept the isolation = danger premise this encourages people to use "more dangerous" headphones because they are less likely to be caught wearing them instead of the "less dangerous" ones which will attract more attention and possibly tickets.  Thus, if you accept the premise of the law, the law serves to encourage more dangerous acts.  This is, on a smaller scale, the exact same thing that forces drugs underground to be sold in an unregulated manner by criminal empires.
 
The fact that something is illegal and punishable is merely a pragmatic deterrence against doing it.  If you are prepared to accept the punishment for preforming an illegal act that is not immoral, then by committing that act you have done nothing immoral.  UE made a good argument from consequences.  It at best shows that it is a bad idea to wear easily visible headphones while driving.  At worst is shows how our civil courts are in serious need of reform.  Regardless of whether its right or wrong, it can get you a ticket.  That's why I can't recommend that anyone wear full size headphones while driving if it is illegal where they live.  I remain unconvinced of the isolation = dangerous argument, but I am convinced that fines and possibly having your license suspended or revoked probably aren't worth it.  IEMs though, are another story.  They're practically invisible if you have long-ish hair.  As such, your chances of being ticketed for it are quite low.  I don't wear headphones while driving myself, since I prefer my subwoofers, but when I can scrape together some money for a motorcycle I plan to use my IEMs while riding like many other motorcyclists do.

 

[ForgottenxxRebel]

Emergency sounds on the road are REALLY, REALLY LOUD. IEM's can only block about 30dB.
 
see, that's why i don't get why people make a huge deal over wearing headphones.   if you want "nanny state" laws banning headphones while driving, then those laws should include those loud stereo systems too.   i'm pretty sure loud music + booming, thumping bass will impair a driver's hearing more than 30db isolation.   the source really isn't relevant here.   loud music blasting from a speaker system can be more of a distraction than music playing at a reasonable level from headphone/iem.
 
Oh, and the asinine way he brushed off the guy who got hit with by a car? Yeah, he's a real winner, kid.
 
uhhh, no.   he didn't brush off the guy who got hit by a bike, he pointed out that the fact the driver was wearing headphones was irrelevant.    i'm pretty sure a bike bell

would be hard to hear with just the windows closed, especially in a busy urban area.   and what if the driver had a magnitude 4 stereo system instead of ibuds, would he have heard the bell??
 
Laws in the U.S. are becoming more strict, not less. This is a very good thing for people who aren't dumbass kids.
 
three cheers for becoming a nanny state!!   how did we ever survive before??

  lmao
 
Having music on is putting the driver in a more distracting environment, which would put the driver and those on the streets in more risks. Putting headphones on means the drivers would be even more isolated in their world, which increases the risks.
 
again, why do the headphones matter?    what about luxury cars that brag about the "quiet interior"?   that's also isolating the driver more than usual.  

 

[vYu223]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ForgottenxxRebel /img/forum/go_quote.gif
...
Having music on is putting the driver in a more distracting environment, which would put the driver and those on the streets in more risks. Putting headphones on means the drivers would be even more isolated in their world, which increases the risks.
 
again, why do the headphones matter?    what about luxury cars that brag about the "quiet interior"?   that's also isolating the driver more than usual.  

I know, right? How does the location of the audio driver in relation to one's head make a difference in how he or she perceives ambient noise, as long as the music is only turned up enough to compete with the ambient noise?
 
If I was in a room, and the speakers were more than ten feet away from me across the room, I would turn the volume to a higher level than if the speakers were 2.5 feet away from me. If the speakers were 2.5 feet away from me, I would have them at a much lower volume. In either case, I would not have any trouble with hearing someone calling my name from another room (example of ambient noise). In fact, my ability to perceive someone calling for my attention from another room would remain the same in both situations.

 

[ace5000]

It is illegal in the State of Ohio. And one of the few laws we have on the books that makes any sense!