Does It Really Sound The Same?

Jul 18, 2011 at 9:26 PM Post #226 of 249


Quote:
Originally Posted by nwavguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
<snip>
 
It seems to me you're mainly interested in finding some small chink in the substantial armor of solid engineering and blind testing?
 
<snip>
 

 
I'm an objectivist, not yet comfortable with the 'all complex devices sound the same' rap, so I've been questioning it.  I don't think questioning blanket statements is a bad thing.
 
Just to clarify, 'hard to tell apart' is not 'sounds the same', right?
 
What bothers me would be saying that headphones out of the Grace 903 sounds the same as headphones out of the Benchmark?
 
Would it matter if the source is usb or coaxial?  Would it matter if the Grace is usb and the Benchmark is coaxial or vice versa?  What about older Benchmark and Grace usb implementations?
 
It still seems to me that there are too many variations for blanket statements.
 

 
 
Jul 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM Post #227 of 249

 
Quote:
<snip>

I'm not saying that all DACs sound the same. Plenty do enough wrong they sound different. But among many of the well designed, well measuring DACs, yeah, I think they would be very hard to pick out in a blind test--even with your favorite headphones which takes room acoustics out of the picture.
 
<snip>
 


Just noticed this part of your post which prompted two questions regarding a headphone rig for a friend.
 
Are there any inexpensive, ($200 -$300) dacs you know of that measure well and sound like your Benchmark?
 
If you're going to use it with a laptop, how important are usb implementations to the sound?
 
Jul 18, 2011 at 9:54 PM Post #228 of 249

Just noticed this part of your post which prompted two questions regarding a headphone rig for a friend.
 
Are there any inexpensive, ($200 -$300) dacs you know of that measure well and sound like your Benchmark?
 
If you're going to use it with a laptop, how important are usb implementations to the sound?


I'm interested in this as well. I'm in the market for a new DAC and LCD-2 capable amp.
 
I would say that if your laptop doesn't have a S/PDIF out a USB implementation would be useful for the convenience. As far as I'm aware the only negative impact USB can have on a digital signal is high jitter (which I've never seen confirmed to be an audible amount) and perhaps noise from a busy motherboard.
 
 
Jul 18, 2011 at 10:09 PM Post #229 of 249
I'm an objectivist, not yet comfortable with the 'all complex devices sound the same'


Going exactly 60 miles an hour side by side on a freeway, which car would win the race, a Mercedes or a Ford? Would the fact that one car includes parts made in Germany and the other has parts from Detroit make a difference? What if we took the tires off and traded them between the cars? Would the race come out the same?
 
Jul 18, 2011 at 10:16 PM Post #230 of 249


Quote:
Going exactly 60 miles an hour side by side on a freeway, which car would win the race, a Mercedes or a Ford? Would the fact that one car includes parts made in Germany and the other has parts from Detroit make a difference? What if we took the tires off and traded them between the cars? Would the race come out the same?


LOL....
 
Now take that race to one of those really curvy James Bond roads in the Alps.
 
 
Jul 18, 2011 at 10:54 PM Post #231 of 249
This thread can go on forever in this vein. I've tried to contribute what I can, but I'll just start repeating myself if I go much further.
 
And, for some here, it probably doesn't matter what I say. Guys like leeperry want to believe way more differences exist than survive even the most carefully run blind listening tests. And guys like USG want to keep finding exceptions for reasons I don't really understand.
 
As I said in the article, some of this isn't black and white. Jitter is a perfect example. I can't definitively say how much jitter is too much and even the methods used to measure it are not well standardized.
 
But I have a lot of confidence in well run blind studies like Meyer and Moran. Their A/D -> D/A hardware certainly had some jitter, but obviously, nobody could hear it. They also couldn't hear the interconnects, the power supplies, all the op amps, connectors, power cords, etc. There's just too much similar evidence out there to try and dismiss all it on any rational basis. But I know many still do. That's their choice and they're welcome to probably spend more than they need to on audio gear.
 
And, leeperry, look up Samuel Groner's huge paper on op amp distortion (it's a big PDF) and search on Audio-GD. He was probably laughing his butt off the Audio-GD discrete op amps measured so horribly bad and his comments were to the effect of "I can't see why anyone would ever use one". I have no doubt they sound different--probably in the way the little flat music box in a Hallmark greeting card sounds different. The chip in the greeting card could probably give Audio-GD's designs a good run. They're that bad.
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 12:15 AM Post #232 of 249


Quote:
Originally Posted by nwavguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 
<snip>And guys like USG want to keep finding exceptions for reasons I don't really understand.<snip>
 


I'm not an engineer like you are.  I look for exceptions for the same reasons you take your measurements.... 
 
 
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 5:56 AM Post #233 of 249

leeperry, look up Samuel Groner's huge paper on op amp distortion (it's a big PDF) and search on Audio-GD. He was probably laughing his butt off the Audio-GD discrete op amps measured so horribly bad and his comments were to the effect of "I can't see why anyone would ever use one". I have no doubt they sound different


This PDF is highly irreleverant for the very fact that he didn't bother trying to adapt his circuit to each opamp...he's done the wildest blind opamp rolling you could possibly think of. Any serious DAC allowing blind rolling will be using decompensation caps and so. Also, some ppl claim that oddly enough the best opamps in his PDF are those he sells. I've never been fund of the A-GD discrete opamps, for the very reason that THD was unbearable to my ears(Moon was the icing on the cake, as I've never been into uber-noisy tubes). I mentioned two top-of-the-class IC opamps that Ray Samuels regularly uses in his own equipment, and they're a completely different story. But you know, audio is like a religion...we have preachers trying to convince us that everything sounds the same(based on smokey "proofs"), the same way preachers all over the world try to convince their disciples that their messiah will be coming back anytime soon. And we all have our own beliefs based on real world experience(or lack thereof). Whatever you or I could say won't change anyone's mind, this thread is as sterile as you could possibly get.
 
When it comes to jitter, a simple test is to use a WM8804 reclocker to reclock toslink to coax...everyone who's tried it has been stunned(me included): http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/02/programming-wm8804.html
 
The SQ difference is *very* real when using transparent headphones...far more real than what some flawed "studies" run in a warehouse will ever try to "prove".
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 7:39 AM Post #234 of 249
If it isn't audible on the best speaker systems.
If it isn't audible except with the most "resolving" headphones.
If it isn't able to be tested for except with the most rigorous procedures.

It doesn't matter.

If I am a typical music lover and I am interested in improving the sound of my rig, I would do a lot better by upgrading my speakers and headphones, equalizing to balance my frequency response, attending to my room acoustics and listening to better engineered music. All of these things would dramatically improve almost all stereos. Yet all over this forum people are recommending spending hard earned money on sound quality improvements that scientists can't even prove exist, and which they admit is inaudible on the sort of equipment most of us own.

There is absolutely no reason to spend money on sound quality improvements you can't hear. Whether or not you *might* be able to barely hear it under a full moon with just the right $1000 cable or $4,000 set of headphones is irrelevant. There's bigger fish to fry for 99.9% of listeners.
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 7:53 AM Post #235 of 249

If it isn't audible except with the most "resolving" headphones. [..] It doesn't matter.


Breaking news: we're on an audiophile headphones forum. Mixing sound engineers will use headphones to finetune a reverb for instance, there's a good reason to that: you get the room acoustics out of the picture, and can hear much more minute details using transparent headphones.
 
When using cheap speakers in a warehouse, indeed a Realtek will do juuuuust fine.

all over this forum people are recommending spending hard earned money on sound quality improvements that scientists can't even prove exist

 
Did you check my last link? WM8804's jitter improvement is well documented, and it's very audible too.

There is absolutely no reason to spend money on sound quality improvements you can't hear.

 
Talking from first hand experience here? Or merely repeating the same galvanizing hearsay from your fellow team members?

Whether or not you *might* be able to barely hear it under a full moon with just the right $1000 cable or $4,000 set of headphones is irrelevant.

 
$1K cable? Who would be dumb enough to buy copper for the price of platinum?
 
$4K headphones? A modded $75 T50RP or a $900 LCD-2 is all you need really.
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 8:29 AM Post #236 of 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
$1K cable? Who would be dumb enough to buy copper for the price of platinum?


Forgive me for re-using your words here: your fellow team members?
 
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 12:48 PM Post #237 of 249
So let me get this right
 
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/02/programming-wm8804.html
 
Inject 5UI of jitter and the WM884 ends up with 51.7psec, inject that amount of jitter into a competitor and you get 334psec and an ipod in normal conditions measures at 258psec.
 
So, when would you get 5UI of jitter in the first place and are we supposed to be able to hear the difference between 51.7 and 334 psec of jitter, when an ipods 258psec is considered 'respectably low'?
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 3:23 PM Post #238 of 249
Breaking news: we're on an audiophile headphones forum. Mixing sound engineers will use headphones to finetune a reverb for instance


I'm sorry, but I've supervised sound mixes for TV, CD and rock videos and I have never- repeat NEVER- seen an engineer put on cans to check a mix. The only time cans are used is when the talent in the booth is tracking and getting playback- in other words isolation. NEVER for sound quality reference. Dub stages have carefully calibrated monitor speakers that are the sole reference for sound quality.

I'll repeat that... 20 years supervising audio production and post and I've never seen headphones used to check sound quality. They just aren't balanced enough for mixing with, even the really good ones.
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 3:30 PM Post #239 of 249
How are you guys reconciling nwavguy's blind DAC listening challenge with the proposition that all decently designed source components should sound the same?  As I read his March 17 post, I was certainly rooting for the $29 Behringer to come out on top (or at least ranked equally with the NuForce), but his listeners evidently preferred the line outs of Benchmark > NuForce > Behringer by a ratio of 12:8:4.  Are we writing this off due to sample size and/or methodology?
 
Jul 19, 2011 at 3:41 PM Post #240 of 249
That result is consistent with all blind comparison tests. Here is another where the top DAC was the most expensive, just pipping the least expensive to first place.
 
http://www.stereomojo.com/Stereomojo%20Six%20DAC%20Shootout.htm/StereomojoSixDACShootout.htm
 
I cannot find an ABX test of DACs.
 

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