[wakeride74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 No, the comma just separates the words giving them indivual meaning. If the definition read "melody, harmony, and rhythm", you'd be correct. The only problem there would be that a lot of other music forms would become non-music since they don't contain all three. There are for example, many forms of music that do not contain a sepcific rhythm. Others do not contain harmony. The thing is though, it doesn't. It reads "melody, harmony, or rhythm" signifying that it could be any one, any two, or all three. It does not necessarily fit the first definition, but that's why there are two; music can fit the first definition or the second. That aside, if you're not questioning whether rap is music or not, why ask the question. Rap is known as a music form, sure some people choose to ignore it and don't like it, but that doesn't make it non-music.

You got it! It fits one but not the other, that's where the question comes in.
And I am asking the question, that's what this was all about... getting opinions from people with various tastes while considering the "definitions".

I never made a statement that rap was not music, only that some of it lacks elements that are the "norm" in most other genre's.
I will say that most of it is not musical to my ears but this is my opinion which is subjective and people would say the same thing about any genre that they did not care for.

 

[Wmcmanus]

I'm kind of late to be jumping in, but I agree with several other posters who have stated that rap is most definitely music, but that they don't really care for it. I don't either, but it would be a real stretch to say that it's not music.

Tha same goes for country music, although I find it slightly less annoying than most rap. Of course, Johnny Cash was an exception! I'm sure there are some rap artists that I'd grow to appreciate if I gave them some listening time, but it's just so hard to know where to begin since most of it is so over the top and disconnected to anything I can identify with (being the old fart that I am).

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom So it's not what I think of as music...that doesn't mean it's NOT music, however.

Ditto, I couldn't be more precise, for the ones who like it good for you, but please play it accordingly, and do not bother who does not like it, you know what I mean, those, bumm, bumm, bumm in a honda bass boxes....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994 No, the comma just separates the words giving them indivual meaning. If the definition read "melody, harmony, and rhythm", you'd be correct. The only problem there would be that a lot of other music forms would become non-music since they don't contain all three. There are for example, many forms of music that do not contain a sepcific rhythm. Others do not contain harmony. The thing is though, it doesn't. It reads "melody, harmony, or rhythm" signifying that it could be any one, any two, or all three.

Well IMO what I understand for music, should have all of those three elements in one way or the other...and that is what I consider music, though in my personal book it is not, but for others may be different...and another IMO, BTW there are not too many genres that will fit in this case neither, I do not know recall right now of any other at least, that has only one of those elements alone......

Having said that, just enjoy what you like and period, and avoid disturbing the rest who does not like it....

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 That's a flimsy rebuttal and a short list.

Actually it wasn't meant to be a serious rebuttal at all. Because the point is, there's worm crap under every rock, but that doesn't make the rock crap. Of course Country is music, and imho of course Rap is music. Just because I like one over the other doesn't mean I can just call one "music" and the other "not music" - and any justification you can point at one genre to denounce it as "not music" can easily be applied in the same context to something other genre (to a greater "long list" or lesser "short list" extent) - therefore, such justifications can't be used as a blanket statement to state as truth that "Rap isn't music" or "Country isn't music" and so on. Listen to Indian Tabla, or Chinese Gambol - pure rhythm, and I call it music. Listen to punk - some of the most offensive lyrics period. I call it music. These kinds of justifications can never be used as absolutes to definitively squash the fact that Rap is Music.

More disturbing is your motivation in making this thread. Are you really
1) A dispassionate music theorist wondering about the origins and nature of Rap and its relation to commonly held beliefs in Music? Or

2)Were your intentions and motivations less pure, thus ultimately leading to personal attacks and flame wars (which would have happened already at a less dignified forum)?

If you can't see the defusing humor of my posts in this thread, and are actually serious when posing this question, either you are 1) or 2) and either is pretty darn scary lol.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masonjar I still don't understand the hate.

One need only LISTEN to rap to understand the hate. It's typically spelled out quite clearly in the lyrics.

 

[SunByrne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 That's a flimsy rebuttal and a short list.

The list could be a lot longer, that's just a sample. I used to think the "girl left me, dead dog, etc." thing was just a stereotype, since I had very little exposure to country music. But here in Texas it's piped in to all kinds of public places, and I hear it a lot--and the stereotype fits much better than I would have thought possible.

Quote:

Almost every rap CD in any given store has "Explicit Lyrics" on the cover.

So? How does that have anything to do with musicality? Besides, if books were required to have the same Draconian labeling system, walking into a Borders you'd see a festival of them on the bestseller list and the poetry section and lots of other places. Are those books suddenly not literature?

Quote:

Besides it's not like it's just a "F word" here and there or one or 2 songs, it's "F this bitch" and "shoot that mother *****" blah blah blah. At least this is the case whenever I hear it on TV or out of someone's car

Yeah, I'm sure that means you've heard it all.

Quote:

Country music is the only kind of music I have ever seen people bring their kids to live concerts. That says a lot.

Yeah, it says "you don't get out much."

I've seen people bring their kids to jazz, folk, classical, and rock concerts (possibly others). When I was a kid my parents often had season tickets to the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra and when one of them couldn't or didn't want to go, I went instead. Talk about flimsy arguments...

Frankly, if stranded on a desert island with a one-genre catalog, I'd take a rap catalog over a country catalog any day, because at least I can tolerate, even get into, some of it. I've yet to hear a single country song that I've ever wanted to hear again. (Hmm, maybe that's not quite true--I get a kick out of some of the Johny Cash covers of bands that don't seem to fit him. His cover of Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus" cracks me up. I don't think that counts, though.)

On the other hand, no matter how much I dislike it personally, I'd still agree that country is music, and if it makes other people happy to listen to it, that's fine by me.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman Some people may take the idea that rap music is simply poetry put to a beat. And this, I believe, is a justifiable belief that I think is valid. Rap music, while to many/most who oppose it don't believe so, is technically a form of poetry. They are words that are bundled together for the significance of promoting a meaning, theme, or message. Even though in my opinion the lyrics are far from the beauty that good poetry in my mind has, there is no doubt that it is indeed poetry.

Reading this statement, I just recall a Jack Nicholson movie: "I would like to know with how many words does the word p....., or f......, or motherf......, or bitch rhyme...

 

[bundee1]

BUT ITS NOT ALL RAP MUSIC!!!

God what the heck do we have to say to convince you people?
Was MC Hammer hatin on bitches? Just because some nazi punks play oi! music does it mean all punk is hateful? Come on.

 

[dmb367]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom One need only LISTEN to rap to understand the hate. It's typically spelled out quite clearly in the lyrics.

This isn't justifiable. Most rap isn't riddled with hate lyrics like the 2 rap songs you've heard.

Edit: That came off a little blunt

Just saying that if you really listen to rap, some better artist and maybe some older ones too, you will see the depth that they have. Anyone you knows Tupac's type of music will know that its very deep, just like he and his family all are.

 

[Alu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmb367 This isn't justifiable. Most rap isn't riddled with hate lyrics like the 2 rap songs you've heard.

That's true. Aaron Ackerson for example only raps about good things.

 

[Homeless]

I believe rap is def. music..i may not like a lot of it, for example, the stuff that is on MTV etc...like 50 cent, and all the guys who rap about sex and what they have (ex:money, cars, and general bling...lol) but i do appreciate some rap, like the beastie boys, K-OS, and Deltron 3030...regardless of what the lyrics are, the background is what? it's music...and when you see a live show, there are usually people playing musical instruments, like bass, guitar, drums, and not just some guy on a turntable...I appreciate the people who can admit that they dont like rap as a genre, and thats fine, to each his own, but i find it close minded to say that rap is not a type of music...

 

[saint.panda]

Why is the argument of whether rap is 'music' or not being based on a dictionary definition?

"Only that which has no history can be defined." (Nietzsche)

For instance, take the Indian context where in some parts music is also seen as the "violation of silence". Take that as your starting definition and you'll end up with different conclusions as to whether rap is music.

As for the dictionary.com defintion. I've went to a classical solo drums concert before and that certainly was 'music' even though it probably contained as much harmony and melody as a rapper's oral work. In fact, it was a national classical music competition.

Also, just as a singer doesn't sing alone, the rapper is usually accompanied by melodic and harmonic patters. Hip hop is to be seen as a whole and not as the rapper alone. There's good reason why there's hardly any 'a cappella hip hop' on the radio.

As to whether it is good music, I think it is difficult to measure the goodness of music by objective standards. Using classical music standards, hip hop certainly sucks but so does classical music seen from a rapper's perspective. If overall popularity was used as a measure then rap would actually be incredibly good music. Then you can also include the music's social perspective but that's a different matter altogether.

 

[asmox]

music is beyond a definition in some dictionary

however, you seem to have missed the last entry..

Quote:

6. An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds.

'aesthetically pleasing' is something that will be very subjective from person to person.

put rap aside for a moment, and think about something like 'noise' music, or hyper-electronics. in most of this stuff, there is hardly any discernable melody, harmony, or rhythm.. but there's a decent-sized audience for it. on the other hand, there are also people out there that listen and can't come to terms with the idea that somebody can call it 'music'.. does this invalidate every other opinion?

hardly.

the answer to a question like, 'is this music?', can really be found in one place.. behind the ears of the listener.

as per the definition (if you absolutely have to use a dictionary to define music, which is ridiculous IMO), if the sounds coming from that record are aesthetically appealing to SOMEBODY out there, there is no reason to not call it music.

 

[saturnine]

IMO it is music. Just like Jazz is music, it caters to the current human desires. Rap may not be good wholesome intellectually stimulating music, but it is still music. Music these days is a fad, and hopefully this fad will fade quickly..

 

[number1sixerfan]

People have the problem as only respecting music they like or holding it as better than any other genres.