[jbloudg20]

I recently took a music appreciation class at UConn (darn Gen-ed's) and you would be amazed at what is considered music.

My professor played a "song" which was basically a bunch of noises. This song was Edgard Varese's Poeme Electronique. This falls under the genre Music concrete, and is infact a genre of music. It was written for the 1958 Brussels World Fair, and was a major success. This piece relied on chance to enhance the person's listening experience.

Anybody who has heard this song, would almost definatley deny the fact that it is music. It lacks tonality, rhythm, and the pitches seem to be arbitrary, yet is indeed considered music.

I deem it highly unfair to deny that Rap is music. Maybe it doesn't suite your tastes, but the fact of the matter is that it is music. You all are highly close-minded, and just pain ignorant for thinking anything else.


You may look at "rappers" like Eminem and 50 cent and fail to see any talent, and for the most part I agree with you. With the exception of Nas, and at times Jay-Z, rappers nowadays don't even comapre with the likes of Tupac, or Biggie. However, one cannot deny that there is talent present: Marketing. 50 cent knows EXACTLY what he is doing. How else could such a mediocre rapper and lyricist make so much money?

 

[wakeride74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jahn Actually it wasn't meant to be a serious rebuttal at all. Because the point is, there's worm crap under every rock, but that doesn't make the rock crap. Of course Country is music, and imho of course Rap is music. Just because I like one over the other doesn't mean I can just call one "music" and the other "not music" - and any justification you can point at one genre to denounce it as "not music" can easily be applied in the same context to something other genre (to a greater "long list" or lesser "short list" extent) - therefore, such justifications can't be used as a blanket statement to state as truth that "Rap isn't music" or "Country isn't music" and so on. Listen to Indian Tabla, or Chinese Gambol - pure rhythm, and I call it music. Listen to punk - some of the most offensive lyrics period. I call it music. These kinds of justifications can never be used as absolutes to definitively squash the fact that Rap is Music. More disturbing is your motivation in making this thread. Are you really 1) A dispassionate music theorist wondering about the origins and nature of Rap and its relation to commonly held beliefs in Music? Or 2)Were your intentions and motivations less pure, thus ultimately leading to personal attacks and flame wars (which would have happened already at a less dignified forum)? If you can't see the defusing humor of my posts in this thread, and are actually serious when posing this question, either you are 1) or 2) and either is pretty darn scary lol.

You act like I, at some point said "rap is not music", besides you were the one that jumped in with the "flame war" comments looking to start something.

In another thread people are all over the place bashing m&m and making statements like "everyone else in the genre should retire too" (or something like that). I will quote myself yet again so you can understand why I posted this:
"We could just say that since it is sold in every "music" store it is music.
I think what it boils down to is the individual perception of "music". While one could say rap is not music it is a rhythmic expression or rhythmic street art, someone else could say hard stuff like Mudvayne, Otep, Slipknot is not "music" it's just noise.
It all depends on what the listener hears and that is going to be unique to each person for the most part IMO
I didn't make a decision, just asked a question and made some suggestions.

Reminder - I do own a couple rap CD's and I am not of the opinion that all of it is crap. For the most part I don't care for it due to the lack of melodies and harmonies which leaves my ears with a feeling of too much repetition.

Even though I dislike much of what is discussed in rap I can still appreciate and enjoy milestones like the Beastie Boys.

I think rap is very different from all other main stream genre's but I think the same thing about classical , which I love (even though it may not be "main stream").

I am not on the attack here folks, just getting opinions and arguments based on the various definitions of "music" and peoples perception of what "music" is."

Sunbyrne - You need to go back and look at what Jahn and I were originally discussing, it was not a debate of musicality. If you are not clear on my position read what I just stated in the post.

As far as this statement: Quote:

The list could be a lot longer, that's just a sample. I used to think the "girl left me, dead dog, etc." thing was just a stereotype, since I had very little exposure to country music. But here in Texas it's piped in to all kinds of public places, and I hear it a lot--and the stereotype fits much better than I would have thought possible.

That only proves the point (which is completely irrelevant to the intended topic here) that stereo types are all based on a certain amount of truth. And for the love of Pete stop acting like I ever said rap was not music!

 

[EyeAmEye]

It's just as much music as the very first neanderthal who smashed a bone against a rock and thought, "ooga, me like sound, ooga, smash more"

Seriously, for the hip-hop artists who create their own musical material, sure, it's as valid as any other genre. To the mainstream thieves who sample, no, that is not music.

 

[D-EJ915]

Music is really just arranged noise, so technically it is music. However, I don't really care for it much but rhyming words on-the-spot is not really my thing but I do rather find their need for excess "bling" disgusting.

 

[bundee1]

I believe the artists who get sampled do get rewarded very well. I agree that Puff daddys sampling is just lazy and uninspired but dont condemn all rap artists who sample.

 

[greyghost]

How many times does this discussion have to come up?

Rap is musical!

The crap they play on the radio IS NOT representative of the whole genre.

50 cent, ja rule, lil jon, etc., GIVES ME A HEADACHE!

-The is a lot of incredible music in the hip hop genre, but most people dismiss it entirely after hearing the noise on MTV.

Any body who does not appreciate hip hop needs to listen to somebody with some musical talent, like Saul Williams or the Roots.

Any body who has seen the Roots live can attest to the fact that there is some incredible talent and musicality in the genre, it's not all gold chains and guns!

 

[PSmith08]

I'll parrot some of the earlier posters in this way:

Listen to Arnold Schoenberg's "Suite" (op. 29) and then listen to any rap song you want. If Schoenberg is music, then most anything can be, and this comparison shows as much. The musical triumph of the 20th century is the explosion into a multiplicity of serious genres and styles. We take most forms of music very seriously, with each having their own loyal partisans. The discourse of music has gone from "Wagner vs. Brahms" to "Classical vs. Rap." That is, we are now able to contrast and compare two genres in all seriousness.

Rap is real music. Some of it very well done, and some of it less so. The same goes for most genres.

Progress. Ain't she grand?

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundee1 I believe the artists who get sampled do get rewarded very well. I agree that Puff daddys sampling is just lazy and uninspired but dont condemn all rap artists who sample.

Doesn't have anything to do with whether it's considered music or not. If I take someone else's painting and splash some fresh dots on it, is what I did considered art? Not in my book.

 

[SunByrne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 Sunbyrne - You need to go back and look at what Jahn and I were originally discussing, it was not a debate of musicality. If you are not clear on my position read what I just stated in the post.

Duly noted that you are not advocating that rap isn't music.

Now, what about the rest of my post?

 

[Homeless]

man how could i forget the roots?...they're incredible musicians...i'd like someone to tell them that they arent musicians...

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 You act like I, at some point said "rap is not music", besides you were the one that jumped in with the "flame war" comments looking to start something.

Wakeride, my flamewar comments were a comment on how your title and first post would result in a flamewar. Therefore me calling attention to it early didn't create it, it was already there. As in, if you saw a cherry bomb with a lit fuse, did the guy who said "that's going to explode" make the bomb pop its cherry? I don't think so. Were you honestly not expecting a virulent response to a title like "Do you consider rap to be "music?" And after reading such title, expect folks to read your first post dispassionately and respond without introducing the basic elements of flamewars - personal affrontery, egos, etc?

If so, then maybe folks wouldn't bat an eyelash if I started a post by stating "Do you consider *insert your fave religion here* a 'Religion'?" That kind of title doesn't invite intelligent discourse - it just draws a line in the sand, no matter what I post in the first post. (Also one of the reasons why religion is kept outside of the forums, btw - it's just a naturally sensitive subject.)

Sorry if I had to state the obvious, but it just seemed like the message wasn't getting across here.

 

[Factor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saturnine Music these days is a fad, and hopefully this fad will fade quickly..

A fad? Fade away?

If you consider the first instance of commoditization and widespread appeal as the "start" of a music genre, you could basically argue that rock & roll started in 1955 and hip-hop started in 1979. This means hip-hop is now 26 years old. If 26 years of being part of the social consciousness is not enough to get it beyond "fad" status, then I guess rock was a also a "fad" all the way up until 1981.

Something tells me that 10 years from now you'll still be complaining about all this rap music being a fad and waiting for it to just disappear, as if the generations of people who were brought up on it will just stop and say "we're bored with this, let's go back to real music," and throw on a Zeppelin record.

I don't know the ages of a lot of you, but I'm gonna have to assume that a good lot of you are middle-aged or so, and I don't know if you have any idea how similar this is to parents circa 1955-1960 being confused/angered about this new obscene noise fad that their kids were poisoning their minds with. You have become your parents.

 

[wakeride74]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunByrne Duly noted that you are not advocating that rap isn't music. Now, what about the rest of my post?

What are you looking for a tag-team argument or something?
Quote:

The list could be a lot longer, that's just a sample. I used to think the "girl left me, dead dog, etc." thing was just a stereotype, since I had very little exposure to country music. But here in Texas it's piped in to all kinds of public places, and I hear it a lot--and the stereotype fits much better than I would have thought possible.

Already addressed a few posts above.
Quote:

So? How does that have anything to do with musicality? Besides, if books were required to have the same Draconian labeling system, walking into a Borders you'd see a festival of them on the bestseller list and the poetry section and lots of other places. Are those books suddenly not literature?

Also already addressed.
Quote:

Yeah, I'm sure that means you've heard it all.

I was specific in saying from what I've heard, I did not say "all" or that I've "heard it all".
Quote:

I've seen people bring their kids to jazz, folk, classical, and rock concerts (possibly others). When I was a kid my parents often had season tickets to the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra and when one of them couldn't or didn't want to go, I went instead. Talk about flimsy arguments...

Jazz, Folk, and Classical I agree with...Rock is way too general and would really be up in the air IMO. I should have been more specific with my comparison, I was thinking along the lines of the Rock, Pop, Metal, Rap, Hip-hop, Country, Electronic "main stream" stuff. The Jazz and Classical would be great for all ages and I think some Blues could be thrown in as well.
Quote:

Frankly, if stranded on a desert island with a one-genre catalog, I'd take a rap catalog over a country catalog any day, because at least I can tolerate, even get into, some of it. I've yet to hear a single country song that I've ever wanted to hear again

What am I supposed to do with this...debate your personal opinion?

Jahn - Debates seldom start in the middle of the road, the point is to start on one end and hear the other in a motion towards the middle.
Quote:

rap is not only music, it's better music than Country! How's that for a flamewar!?

That's pretty plain to me... just taking a dig because you were bent about the thread. It's not that hard to have a valid argument about something keeping mean spirited attacks aside, there have been many posts here with good information and opinions (save a few). Some people just seem to make it seem personal IMO.

 

[socrates63]

Quote:

Originally Posted by traficante I think all this is a cultural divide that runs deeper then the music itself.

I totally agree. Taking a dictionary definition (established by those in power, more privileged class) and trying to pigeon-hole rap (created by those in less-privileged class) into it... totally laughable. I'm not gonna touch the racist connotation of the original post.

What's the point of raising this question? What's the value of establishing a position, one way or the other? Some people say rap is music, some say no. Some like rap, some don't. Let's just leave it at that and close this thread.

For me, rap is music. End of story.

 

[bundee1]

Quote:

Doesn't have anything to do with whether it's considered music or not. If I take someone else's painting and splash some fresh dots on it, is what I did considered art? Not in my book.

So your telling me no one in the art world has taken the work of others and reinterpreted it or used it in one of their paintings?