[kenincalgary]

Those interconnects have been replaced in the lineup with no doubt more expensive versions but around $1200 was the price back then. The thing about trying to make these comparisons of relative performance is that the reality reference points are different.

Before ground boxes the reference point was lower because it was full of noise, therefore any difference between cables is heard through muddy filters. So in that reality, I have heard the difference between AQ Vodka and Diamond models ($800 & $2500 msrp) and the Diamond was clearly better.

Going solderless on the XLRs produced improvement close to that magnitude which is amazing....but this is in a system that already has 11 ground boxes. I don't know how audible going solderless would have been in the pre-groundbox world. Having said that, putting the first box on the xlr interconnect easily surpassed the delta from the pre-gb world. The sound I'm hearing from my system would not have been possible in the pre-gb world no matter how much the cables were, there's too damn much noise.
You can buy a sharper more expensive lens, but if you're trying to focus it through thick smoke it's hard to know how sharp that lens is. I've never heard a $5k or $10k cable, but unless it has groundbox type functions built in, I have a hard time believing they would do what these boxes are doing. Anyone who's heard expensive cables please feel free to comment.

 

[DecentLevi]

Using Rochelle Salt to absorb EMI and tune...

I originally did not plan to mention these tweaks. But I just got a very nice timbre boost with a PLC mod and AC cable mod I did, adding these tweaks made the difference . So I thought I would throw it out there for others to try if they want. Rochelle Salt is well known and used to absorb EMI. I personally have had mixed results trying it where they are usually used outside of part of ground box mix. The following are two uses that work and used kind of similar to Shakti Stones or Onlines. The effects are subtle to a bit more than subtle. But when one finds the placement that improves or gels with the systems synergy the cumulative effects are welcomed. And the cost is very negligible, 2lb bag is about $25.

How I am using it mainly is with AC power or with/on the side of SMPS. On top of a ground box could add a bit of mid to top end spice. Must just try it at different places and listen to see if you like what it does. If ones system is a bit too dark, this will also help open up the system.

* If you look carefully at the pics, you can see small bags on top of the AC connector end of power cords. I like the effect here.

* I also place the Rochelle Salt inside small zip lock bags and place them in the 2.25" wide x 7/8" high x 3 7/8" long ABS enclosures. The feet I use under the small enclosures are small round silicone feet I got on Amazon. I use these like small Shatki Stones and place them on top of the ground boxes and the Furutech PLC in the pic.

Interesting work there with those Rochelle salt bags. I like how these have greater flexibility than magnetite bags, being they are not magnetic so can be placed alongside electronic circuitry.

Also I happened to read about something a long time ago that I considered a bit of a 'horror story' that some users were getting improved sound by literally filling their components such as DAC with salt sand literally inside the chasis and on the PCB, etc... No 'horror' with this method, since it would be in a removable mess-free sack. On that note, I do believe this has great potential to work inside components. For me I'm not sure to actually try it that way, though I would check first that you're not insulating something that runs hot.

I saw you use it on some of the cable ends near the connectors. Are you using that on the same cable that also has maginetite bags ('cable wraps') in the middle? So one bag of each type on the same cable? That may be overkill perhaps.

ABS enclosures - mind to chime in on what that is and the use case? I don't follow.

Shatki stones on ground boxes and PLC. If those are the huge crystal looking salt chunks that I've seen before, those would look really beautiful all on their own like an art form, and who knows if even could improve the sound. Would like to see pictures of that.

 

[DecentLevi]

I did the xlr IC mod per cdacosta's input. Rather than spending the time, energy & materials on an Ali-X thing (the sample I have isn't very good) I modified some relatively pricey Chord Co. Anthem Reference ICs.

The first step replaced the soldered Neutrik connectors with the recommended EIZZ units at the female end while attaching the ground box cable. With just this mod, and the ground cable dragging along as an antenna, this gave a surprising (to me) upgrade, like going up a level on some brand name cable brand's hierarchy. Replacing the connectors at the other end reinforced that improvement, so for the price of connectors and a bit of work I was very happy with the result. In the old pre-ground box days that would have been considered a major improvement (actually, it is regardless).

Then I plugged in the box and someone opened the picture window. The impact has been well described here so I'll leave that out. I had another box meant to go on an ac cable but just for the hell of it I plugged it into the xlr box, having 2 in series. The system jumped another level and I had no intention of moving it. Those 2 boxes combined were 24% of the total weight of the amp & pre.

So I finally built a 3rd box and looked forward to hearing what it would do with an ac cable. Just for the hell of it I plugged it into the xlr group and now have failed again to treat an ac cable with a ground box. A 4th box is underway, I wonder where I should put it?

I would be quite interested to see photos of your ground boxes, including how they are used and where they are connected. I'm not looking for symmetrical art or anything.

Wrapping power cables outside of the system I have not tried, interesting, will try it. Want to try or experiment with wraps on SMPS cables, have not done this yet.

I do not follow or understand these two questions. Also what you do mean by "cable grounding box hack"?:
"I read this and a few brief questions came to mind. Are you no longer recommending connecting both sides of a cable for your cable grounding box hack? It seems you only do both sides for interconnects. Have you tried it on both sides for other types such as AC cables?"

Well it seems Entreq and CAD are now also suggesting filtering AC earth ground. Since the minerals do not seem to catch fire, seems safe.

By 'cable grounding box hack' I was attempting to coin a phrase describing your modding the neutral or ground pins of a cable and connecting a ground box to either side.

My other question was in reference to connecting both ends of a cable or just one. For the above mentioned type of hack/tweak I initially thought you meant the stellar results required both opposite sides of the cable. So in which cases would The ground box be connected to only one versus both sides? Seems both sides was only for interconnects but not AC cables.

 

[cdacosta]

Those interconnects have been replaced in the lineup with no doubt more expensive versions but around $1200 was the price back then. The thing about trying to make these comparisons of relative performance is that the reality reference points are different.

Before ground boxes the reference point was lower because it was full of noise, therefore any difference between cables is heard through muddy filters. So in that reality, I have heard the difference between AQ Vodka and Diamond models ($800 & $2500 msrp) and the Diamond was clearly better.

Going solderless on the XLRs produced improvement close to that magnitude which is amazing....but this is in a system that already has 11 ground boxes. I don't know how audible going solderless would have been in the pre-groundbox world. Having said that, putting the first box on the xlr interconnect easily surpassed the delta from the pre-gb world. The sound I'm hearing from my system would not have been possible in the pre-gb world no matter how much the cables were, there's too damn much noise.
You can buy a sharper more expensive lens, but if you're trying to focus it through thick smoke it's hard to know how sharp that lens is. I've never heard a $5k or $10k cable, but unless it has groundbox type functions built in, I have a hard time believing they would do what these boxes are doing. Anyone who's heard expensive cables please feel free to comment.

Ok cool, there is a lot to unpack with what you wrote. First I agree with what you said 100%. I just also realized you are using the Ali 6N copper wire I suggest for the Anthem XLR interconnect mod and jumpers. How does that wire perform compared to what else you were using?

I have wrote about why going from a soldered connection to a solderless makes a performance difference. But the removing of the noise in the circuit is the key to truly improving the performance of an audio system. I know you understand the following (because you have experienced it), but I will try to show what I have found to be true. Also how the following effect performance. Please feel free to comment based on your personal experience...

Components in the chain create electrical noise pollution which effect the original signal. Cables pick up noise which again further effect the signal. This noise usually cannot be heard by human hearing, but will mask information that is in the original recording. How I know this to be true, is once noise is systematically removed from the electrical stages of components and cables, more information is heard after each stage of noise removal. So it kind of goes like this:

- Internet source from wall is transmitted to router, switcher, etc. Noise is picked up by the cable and electronics which effect the source signal. This signal is transmitted to source component..
- Source (PC, Streamer, CD Transport, etc) generate noise and gets transmitted across...
- Digital cable that picks up noise, that transmits signal to...
- DAC, that the internal electronics again generates its own noise, that is again transmitted across...
- Analog cables, that is picking up noise, that transmits signal to...
- Amplifier, which noise is again internally generated and transmitted to headphones or speakers.

The worse noise generators are usually the digital components. DACs are notorious for noise generation. As noise is lowered at each of the above stages of signal hand off, the purer the signal. Hence the more one can hear from the original recording. The performance difference and the amount of information heard, after removing or lowering the signal noise from ground can be shocking. Literally elevate the performance of a system well beyond what one thinks the capability is. Ground boxes are effective for filtering noise from earth ground but probably 1/3 or so the effect of signal ground filtering.

I can likely spend hours upon hours discussing cable designs and what the audible effects are. But the main point is as Kenincalgary surmised, they cannot on their own filter or lower the noise that is generated and picked up from the electronics in an audio system. The cable mod, which is adding a ground box cable and ground box to the source side. I think this is so effective because you are filtering the output stage, interconnect/transmission cable and to some degree the output side/amp.

 

[cdacosta]

Interesting work there with those Rochelle salt bags. I like how these have greater flexibility than magnetite bags, being they are not magnetic so can be placed alongside electronic circuitry.

Also I happened to read about something a long time ago that I considered a bit of a 'horror story' that some users were getting improved sound by literally filling their components such as DAC with salt sand literally inside the chasis and on the PCB, etc... No 'horror' with this method, since it would be in a removable mess-free sack. On that note, I do believe this has great potential to work inside components. For me I'm not sure to actually try it that way, though I would check first that you're not insulating something that runs hot.

I saw you use it on some of the cable ends near the connectors. Are you using that on the same cable that also has maginetite bags ('cable wraps') in the middle? So one bag of each type on the same cable? That may be overkill perhaps.

ABS enclosures - mind to chime in on what that is and the use case? I don't follow.

Shatki stones on ground boxes and PLC. If those are the huge crystal looking salt chunks that I've seen before, those would look really beautiful all on their own like an art form, and who knows if even could improve the sound. Would like to see pictures of that.

Rochelle salt attracts and absorbs EMI and RFI. I have tried them on top of transformers (inside components) of different types, but are not fully happy with what I hear. The best use case I have found is on the side of SMPS, on top of PC power supply, right at the AC connectors/on top of the connectors like you saw in the pics. To a more limited extent is placing Rochelle salt inside the ABS enclosures and placing the enclosures on top of the ground boxes. I have not tried placing Rochelle Salt on top of electronics directly. The ABS enclosures allow for the Rochelle salt to be sealed inside an enclosure so one can experiment placement and not worry about the Rochelle salt escaping/spilling. Also looks pretty cool. LOL

The big black square that is on top of the PLC in the pic is a Shakti Stone. I would not worry or bother with these, they are expensive and do not provide the performance that a cable wrap will provide to a power cable. And the Magnetite AC power cable wraps are as close to free as a tweak can get. I do use the Magnetite AC wraps at the center of the cable and at the AC connector end the Rochelle salt bag. The Magnetite AC power cable wrap is a universal tweak that works well on almost all power cables. The Rochelle salt bags are not as universal, must put in place and listen to know if you like the effect. These two tweaks do different things, the AC wrap, disrupts the magnetic field of the power cable. The Rochelle salt is absorbing EMI and RFI.

 

[cdacosta]

By 'cable grounding box hack' I was attempting to coin a phrase describing your modding the neutral or ground pins of a cable and connecting a ground box to either side.

My other question was in reference to connecting both ends of a cable or just one. For the above mentioned type of hack/tweak I initially thought you meant the stellar results required both opposite sides of the cable. So in which cases would The ground box be connected to only one versus both sides? Seems both sides was only for interconnects but not AC cables.

Here is clarification on how I mod the cables for ground box filtering:

* Digital SPDIF (RCA or BNC) - add single 14ga. 6N ground box cable to ground, source side only

* Analog XLR balanced interconnect - add single 14ga. 6N ground box cable to ground (Pin 1), source side only. To both left and right channels

* Analog RCA (single ended) interconnect - add single 14ga. 6N ground box cable to negative, source side only. To both left and right channels

* AC power cable - add dual twisted 14ga. (11AWG) 6N ground cable to ground connection on one side of cable, either AC connector or IEC end. Which side AC or IEC will depend on application. When I say application I mean what are you wanting to filter? Want to directly filter the amplifier's (or any component) power supply, install at IEC end. Want to filter at the wall side, for a cable that is supplying power to a PLC, install at AC connector end. Just understand you will be filtering the cable and the side that the ground box cable is installed.

 

[kenincalgary]

Ok cool, there is a lot to unpack with what you wrote. First I agree with what you said 100%. I just also realized you are using the Ali 6N copper wire I suggest for the Anthem XLR interconnect mod and jumpers. How does that wire perform compared to what else you were using?

I have wrote about why going from a soldered connection to a solderless makes a performance difference. But the removing of the noise in the circuit is the key to truly improving the performance of an audio system. I know you understand the following (because you have experienced it), but I will try to show what I have found to be true. Also how the following effect performance. Please feel free to comment based on your personal experience...

Components in the chain create electrical noise pollution which effect the original signal. Cables pick up noise which again further effect the signal. This noise usually cannot be heard by human hearing, but will mask information that is in the original recording. How I know this to be true, is once noise is systematically removed from the electrical stages of components and cables, more information is heard after each stage of noise removal. So it kind of goes like this:

- Internet source from wall is transmitted to router, switcher, etc. Noise is picked up by the cable and electronics which effect the source signal. This signal is transmitted to source component..
- Source (PC, Streamer, CD Transport, etc) generate noise and gets transmitted across...
- Digital cable that picks up noise, that transmits signal to...
- DAC, that the internal electronics again generates its own noise, that is again transmitted across...
- Analog cables, that is picking up noise, that transmits signal to...
- Amplifier, which noise is again internally generated and transmitted to headphones or speakers.

The worse noise generators are usually the digital components. DACs are notorious for noise generation. As noise is lowered at each of the above stages of signal hand off, the purer the signal. Hence the more one can hear from the original recording. The performance difference and the amount of information heard, after removing or lowering the signal noise from ground can be shocking. Literally elevate the performance of a system well beyond what one thinks the capability is. Ground boxes are effective for filtering noise from earth ground but probably 1/3 or so the effect of signal ground filtering.

I can likely spend hours upon hours discussing cable designs and what the audible effects are. But the main point is as Kenincalgary surmised, they cannot on their own filter or lower the noise that is generated and picked up from the electronics in an audio system. The cable mod, which is adding a ground box cable and ground box to the source side. I think this is so effective because you are filtering the output stage, interconnect/transmission cable and to some degree the output side/amp.

Well said. Targeting the DAC is highly effective, I currently have 3 boxes connected to that bad boy. When the next box is built I'll be unable to resist plugging it in as well just to see (hear), though I really must get to the ac cables because there are so many more of them than the interconnects.

 

[cdacosta]

Well said. Targeting the DAC is highly effective, I currently have 3 boxes connected to that bad boy. When the next box is built I'll be unable to resist plugging it in as well just to see (hear), though I really must get to the ac cables because there are so many more of them than the interconnects.

There is a point where adding more ground boxes will yield little improvement. That is when you will know it is best to install elsewhere within the system. I am curious, how is the Ali 6N copper wire I suggest performing for you compared to what else you are using for the cabling?

 

[kenincalgary]

I would be quite interested to see photos of your ground boxes, including how they are used and where they are connected. I'm not looking for symmetrical art or anything.

By 'cable grounding box hack' I was attempting to coin a phrase describing your modding the neutral or ground pins of a cable and connecting a ground box to either side.

My other question was in reference to connecting both ends of a cable or just one. For the above mentioned type of hack/tweak I initially thought you meant the stellar results required both opposite sides of the cable. So in which cases would The ground box be connected to only one versus both sides? Seems both sides was only for interconnects but not AC cables.

Here's the box before being filled.
The series of boxes is connected to the xlr interconnect female end where the DAC resides.

 

[kenincalgary]

There is a point where adding more ground boxes will yield little improvement. That is when you will know it is best to install elsewhere within the system. I am curious, how is the Ali 6N copper wire I suggest performing for you compared to what else you are using for the cabling?

I've only used the wire you recommend. The 3 Ali boxes iny system have a thin silver wire that's attached internally. I don't know how to open them to roll the wire.

On a side note I tried the 3/4" silicone bumpers you mentioned. They were used to add a 2nd or third level of vibration control on numerous components. I used the entire pack and ordered more.

I was expecting some improvement but am quite astonished by just how effective they are.

 

[EDhaenens]

Here's the box before being filled.
The series of boxes is connected to the xlr interconnect female end where the DAC resides.

Interesting stacking system. Are you using three ground boxes on one xlr pair? Are they completely full? How does the stacking of boxes affect performance for you? What is the platform underneath the boxes?

 

[cdacosta]

I've only used the wire you recommend. The 3 Ali boxes iny system have a thin silver wire that's attached internally. I don't know how to open them to roll the wire.

On a side note I tried the 3/4" silicone bumpers you mentioned. They were used to add a 2nd or third level of vibration control on numerous components. I used the entire pack and ordered more.

I was expecting some improvement but am quite astonished by just how effective they are.

The silicon domes are about 90% or so of the performance of IsoAcoustics mini pucks, for ground boxes at least. And are only $1.20 a piece shipped vs $100 for 8 IsoAcoustics Mini pucks. The reason I use the .75" versions is the weight bearing. Larger ones likely for ground boxes will be too big for the weight, they are designed for heavier loads. After they are installed, they dissipate energy in multiple directions like a flexi rack. You can see this by rocking or pushing the box in different directions.

 

[cdacosta]

Here's the box before being filled.
The series of boxes is connected to the xlr interconnect female end where the DAC resides.

You should consider using a flexible glue like E6000 for the inside joints to strengthen the joints and enclosure. See pic

 

[kenincalgary]

Yes, they're all full and attached to the xlr pair. They're stacked because I don't have enough space to spread them out.

The platforms consist of 2 layers (and 2 different technologies) of vibration control. The first layer is the absorbing type - Isoacoustics pucks. Second layer are the ball bearing devices from Ali. In between is a birch art board with abstract resin art incorporating shungite powder and crushed pink tourmaline. I've recently added a 3rd layer by putting a 3/4" silicone bumper as the cherry on top - the degree of improvement from those surprised me.

I have a speaker based system with 2 subs on a wood floor so take vibration control very seriously.

 

[EDhaenens]

Yes, they're all full and attached to the xlr pair. They're stacked because I don't have enough space to spread them out.

The platforms consist of 2 layers (and 2 different technologies) of vibration control. The first layer is the absorbing type - Isoacoustics pucks. Second layer are the ball bearing devices from Ali. In between is a birch art board with abstract resin art incorporating shungite powder and crushed pink tourmaline. I've recently added a 3rd layer by putting a 3/4" silicone bumper as the cherry on top - the degree of improvement from those surprised me.

I have a speaker based system with 2 subs on a wood floor so take vibration control very seriously.

Did you start with one box and gradually added the others or started with three at once? How would you describe performance boost per box added at xlr?

Wow, nice platform you got there. Great it works for you. Have you also decoupled speakers and subwoofers from the floor?