Dive deeper into legendary sound. Let’s meet the HD 660S2
KaiFi
500+ Head-Fier
Yep. EQ to enhance sound as you see fit, but if an expensive headphone "needs" EQ to not sound terrible, it's not a good headphone to begin with.
I personally like meaty sound but HD800S in combo with M17 & PL50 has something special to it an 90% on my head. Still I own LCD2 CB2021 and Campfire Cascade with leather XL pads on a way, like them both. Go figure.
for a headphone with distortion and messed up mids and highs I would probably agree. but if the only tweak it needs is stronger bass. Il take it any time of the day. its a sleeper, I will EQ it, and it will sound better than most "summit-fi" $$$$$ headphones without EQ.
Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Cannot give a definitive answer one way or another...but like yourself knowing the technology involved is the other side of this hobby.
Mechanics are basically the same, diaphragm, voice coil, magnet and surround but what we do know so far is that all those physical attributes have been modified from the original "S"driver, so essentially a new driver.
Much like the departure from the dual to a "single-layer" diaphragm incorporated in the NDH-30.
I'm sort of hoping the S2 has garnered some of the performance of the closed back HD630VB in terms of treble finesse and sub base while retaining the 600 midrange.
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If someone uses a very high quality DAC for the streamer/transport (not a computer) what kind of device could be an acceptable solution as a DSP for EQing between source and DAC? I mean one that would not degrade the signal audibly in a revealing system of amp/phones.
(This quality concern plus the added cost/fuss of another device makes me demanding with headphones. I cannot accept paying much for a headphone that definitely needs EQing).
(This quality concern plus the added cost/fuss of another device makes me demanding with headphones. I cannot accept paying much for a headphone that definitely needs EQing).
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Lenni
Headphoneus Supremus
The problem is the bass on the 660s is missing. There's a difference between the quality and amount of bass someone might prefer and not being there at all.
ThanatosVI
Headphoneus Supremus
I will have a Rockna Wavelight Server soon.
That is a Roon Core, which therefore has all the Roon DSP features + Hardware upsampling.
I can report back if it us a high quality solution for your use case in a few weeks
gimmeheadroom
Headphoneus Supremus
Look at the new RME pro version with the 4,4mm head out.
Great question and thanks for following along! Let's establish a bit of common ground first. When someone says "the same driver", I think of the production line that the driver comes off of. That Sennheiser production line is churning out drivers to put into headphones, mass producing as many as possible based on the production schedule (which is based on all sorts of other things) for efficiency, all under a very rigid specification for quality, consistency and acoustic performance.
Let's pretend that the above production line is making drivers for made-up-headphone model number HD XYZ, and the driver is called the "Blue 1".
If I take Blue 1 drivers made for the HD XYZ and put them inside a different styled headphone called HD ABC, yes, I am using the same driver. Full stop. Depending on the chassis and other variables, they will probably sound different, for better or worse, but different for certain. Still, in this instance it's the same driver.
Now, if I modify the Blue 1 driver that was originally made for HD XYZ by changing the material composition, size, magnet strength, voice coil windings, voice coil material, etc etc etc, it is no longer the same driver. This is truer if that new driver design is then mass produced to this new spec. Lets call the new version of Blue 1 the "Black 1". You could take the Black 1 driver, put it in the HD XYZ, and compare it to the Blue 1 version of HD XYZ and the resulting sound can range from barely different to radically different, and anywhere in between depending on the changes you intentionally made.
There are almost infinite ways to modify that HD XYZ's Blue 1 driver, but the second you do and decide to continue to do so on purpose, it is a different driver because it does not sound identical to the original Blue 1. Remember, these are produced to sound a certain way within a certain chassis to get a desired output sound.
All that said, yes, we share materials and components for drivers among different products. We do have driver platforms that provide a jumpoff point for different headphones in development. You can look inside your HD 660S or 660S2 or 600 and probably see "SYS" and a part number stamped on the diaphragm. Same driver? Nope! That's the platform, and often (depending on the model) you'll see the part number for the diaphragm (which in itself is a separate component to the magnet, voice coil, transducer harness/chassis, etc etc).
We share components among some headphones, but our development team spends a lot of time fine tuning, calibrating, testing, simulating, and stressing various combinations of components WITH newly developed materials, technologies, components, and acoustic implements (think bass tubes and other airflow mechanics) to get new results. And yes, there are instances where you can put one set of drivers into a different chassis and it DOES sound amazing and new, but that process has to be refined for consistency, durability, and mass production so that customers who just want to buy a great set of headphones with a voicing they like, can do so without starting a science fair project or without spending a fortune (costing is a whole other discussion).
I often compare headphones to sports cars. The engine is the engine, but there's so much more to the driving experience than the size, cylinders, and displacement. Those things matter, but do not dictate the capability or feel of the car.
OK so lets go back to the original exercise of removing the HD 700's drivers and sticking them inside an HD 650 chassis. Does it equal an HD660S? No. And similarly, it does not equal an HD660S2. Making the leap from HD 700 drivers to HD660S2 (skipping the HD 660S in the evolution chart) is also off the table. Further, there's a range of things that happen to that driver platform and driver enclosure to end up at "the sound" for a specific headphone, even if very closely related to another model. We will actually talk a lot about this in an upcoming content series we're producing in the spring. The discipline of acoustics is sooooo much more than the transducer, nevermind all of the ways you can affect the transducer itself. Lets ask this question: are the HD 700 guts closely related to the HD 660S? Absolutely. If they took a DNA test you can easily make the argument they are siblings and I would not disagree.
Sorry for the long-winded response, but I think using the "switcheroo" scenario helps illustrate that drivers can be very similar and sound very different in the end. The brilliant minds working on these products use a 360-degree approach when developing a new sound experience right down to the type of earpad material, involving proprietary state-of-the-art simulation, prototyping, and a hell of a lot of trial and error.
The <jk> HD XYZ is debuting at CanJam and pre-orders start tonight
</jk>[edit] totally forgot about your THD part of the question. THD can vary depending on the frequency and SPL, and can be measured a myriad of ways. We've standardized our THD measurement at 1 kHz, and usually at 100 dB, to keep things easier to compare. As for THD at varying frequencies? I haven't seen the data and cannot speak to that specificity at the time.
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Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Lots of quality base on my end, never felt is was lacking with HD660S....just no sub base. Have hopes the the S2 fills the bill.
Should mention I've no means of applying EQ...currently just a Cambridge CXN DAC streamer/CXC CD transport.....balanced outs to the Bryston BHA-1.
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If we quantify the HD 660S' bass as being completely "missing" (effectively 0 dB), I have to jump in and respectfully rebuke that the bass response should be qualified as "not what I prefer" (and that's fine -- you know what you do and don't like and that makes it easier to settle on a headphone collection). We've been listening to the feedback about 660S and the desire for more bass, and boosted it (among other optimizations), quantifiably so. I hope you get to try them with your favorite tunes, at the least.
Lenni
Headphoneus Supremus
"Lots of bass" is not something I would attribute to the 660s. I'm not a bass head at all. I actually like the bass to be minimal. On the 660s it rolls off too soon and it's just barely present. For example, when I compare it to my speakers' it shows me how much I'm missing out.
Anyway, a part from the bass these HP were amazing. If the 660s2 are even better with a little added bass they are going to be a sure winner for me.
Mike F
Headphoneus Supremus
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@ericpalonen, thanks so much for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive answer about the drivers. Kiitos paljon! I fully understand and appreciate what you’re saying.Great question and thanks for following along! Let's establish a bit of common ground first. When someone says "the same driver", I think of the production line that the driver comes off of. That Sennheiser production line is churning out drivers to put into headphones, mass producing as many as possible based on the production schedule (which is based on all sorts of other things) for efficiency, all under a very rigid specification for quality, consistency and acoustic performance.
Let's pretend that the above production line is making drivers for made-up-headphone model number HD XYZ, and the driver is called the "Blue 1".
If I take Blue 1 drivers made for the HD XYZ and put them inside a different styled headphone called HD ABC, yes, I am using the same driver. Full stop. Depending on the chassis and other variables, they will probably sound different, for better or worse, but different for certain. Still, in this instance it's the same driver.
Now, if I modify the Blue 1 driver that was originally made for HD XYZ by changing the material composition, size, magnet strength, voice coil windings, voice coil material, etc etc etc, it is no longer the same driver. This is truer if that new driver design is then mass produced to this new spec. Lets call the new version of Blue 1 the "Black 1". You could take the Black 1 driver, put it in the HD XYZ, and compare it to the Blue 1 version of HD XYZ and the resulting sound can range from barely different to radically different, and anywhere in between depending on the changes you intentionally made.
There are almost infinite ways to modify that HD XYZ's Blue 1 driver, but the second you do and decide to continue to do so on purpose, it is a different driver because it does not sound identical to the original Blue 1. Remember, these are produced to sound a certain way within a certain chassis to get a desired output sound.
All that said, yes, we share materials and components for drivers among different products. We do have driver platforms that provide a jumpoff point for different headphones in development. You can look inside your HD 660S or 660S2 or 600 and probably see "SYS" and a part number stamped on the diaphragm. Same driver? Nope! That's the platform, and often (depending on the model) you'll see the part number for the diaphragm (which in itself is a separate component to the magnet, voice coil, transducer harness/chassis, etc etc).
We share components among some headphones, but our development team spends a lot of time fine tuning, calibrating, testing, simulating, and stressing various combinations of components WITH newly developed materials, technologies, components, and acoustic implements (think bass tubes and other airflow mechanics) to get new results. And yes, there are instances where you can put one set of drivers into a different chassis and it DOES sound amazing and new, but that process has to be refined for consistency, durability, and mass production so that customers who just want to buy a great set of headphones with a voicing they like, can do so without starting a science fair project or without spending a fortune (costing is a whole other discussion).
I often compare headphones to sports cars. The engine is the engine, but there's so much more to the driving experience than the size, cylinders, and displacement. Those things matter, but do not dictate the capability or feel of the car.
OK so lets go back to the original exercise of removing the HD 700's drivers and sticking them inside an HD 650 chassis. Does it equal an HD660S? No. And similarly, it does not equal an HD660S2. Making the leap from HD 700 drivers to HD660S2 (skipping the HD 660S in the evolution chart) is also off the table. Further, there's a range of things that happen to that driver platform and driver enclosure to end up at "the sound" for a specific headphone, even if very closely related to another model. We will actually talk a lot about this in an upcoming content series we're producing in the spring. The discipline of acoustics is sooooo much more than the transducer, nevermind all of the ways you can affect the transducer itself. Lets ask this question: are the HD 700 guts closely related to the HD 660S? Absolutely. If they took a DNA test you can easily make the argument they are siblings and I would not disagree.
Sorry for the long-winded response, but I think using the "switcheroo" scenario helps illustrate that drivers can be very similar and sound very different in the end. The brilliant minds working on these products use a 360-degree approach when developing a new sound experience right down to the type of earpad material, involving proprietary state-of-the-art simulation, prototyping, and a hell of a lot of trial and error.
The <jk> HD XYZ is debuting at CanJam and pre-orders start tonight
[edit] totally forgot about your THD part of the question. THD can vary depending on the frequency and SPL, and can be measured a myriad of ways. We've standardized our THD measurement at 1 kHz, and usually at 100 dB, to keep things easier to compare. As for THD at varying frequencies? I haven't seen the data and cannot speak to that specificity at the time.
Could you please also comment on the distortion differences between the 660S and 660S2?
Edit: I see that you just have!
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Rob80b
Headphoneus Supremus
Semantics, "Lots of "quality" base on my end".....
On that I can definitely agree, don't think it's even physically possible... I don't have a monster system but even with my stand mount Dynaudio Special 25s and Velodyne DD sub I can get my 10' x 15' room easily pressurized
....the Audeze LCD-2 at the back of the room produced the most base but still quite different, IMHO headphone and stereo listening are still far apart in reproducing that visceral effect.
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