[majkel]

 
Quote:

Hard to comment on that. I've stated several times that I find the balance of the 650 very true to what I hear in the concert hall.

 
Could you describe the concert hall you attend? What position do you choose for your body while listening? Don't you sit backwards to the stage? Whenever I hear rock drums or percussion, what I hear from the HD650 sounds completely false. No matter the drums were amplified during the live event or not. There is most of the snare drum crash sound lost on the HD650. The resulting sound is more of a fart while sitting on the armchair. The overall resolution, accuracy and speed of the HD650 is far below HD800's abilities. There is just no comparison. It's a budget family car against a sports car. You can read in the User's Manual what the HD650 were designed for. There is a funny passage about "new listening habits" saying nothing more than people don't want accurate and analytical sound after all. Reading between the notes - the HD600's, being overall more accurate became a PITA for many "hi-fi" equipment users giving unbearable sound which in fact wasn't their fault but caused by sound quality provided by equipment with the hi-fi sticker. So, Sennheiser had to prepare a product being pleasantly sounding from any device inluding onboard PC sound cards. The recipe for this is simple and visible on FR graphs with no 1/3 octave smoothing - bumped up bass and lower midrange together with deeply cut frequencies past 10kHz.

 

 

[Finnegans]

Quote:

One of my house mates is a drummer, I hear cymbals every day and brushes on snare drums many days - there is essentially not a chance in hell that you will convince me the HD800 represents them anything like reality. There would never be cymbals on drum kits if they really sounded like that, and the person who invented them would have been blindfolded and shot.

 

[size=10.0pt]Please, can you clarify your statement – you say, that, while listening to the recording of these particular cymbals that a friend of yours possess, you distinctively hear that HD800 colors the sound [/size]

[size=10.0pt]OR [/size]

[size=10.0pt]you compare the sound of some cymbals on some recording that might have underwent some processing (equalization? compression?) that you have heard some time ago to the sound you hear every day?[/size]

 

 

[EddieE]

Quote:

 
[size=10pt]Please, can you clarify your statement – you say, that, while listening to the recording of these particular cymbals that a friend of yours possess, you distinctively hear that HD800 colors the sound [/size]
[size=10pt]OR [/size]
[size=10pt]you compare the sound of some cymbals on some recording that might have underwent some processing (equalization? compression?) that you have heard some time ago to the sound you hear every day? [/size]
 

 
[size=10pt]Well as has been elaborated on a fair bit already, the phones are sibilant. In my opinion it’s not the only problem with them.[/size]
 
 

 

[pp312]

 


 

Quote:

 
 
Could you describe the concert hall you attend? What position do you choose for your body while listening? Don't you sit backwards to the stage? Whenever I hear rock drums or percussion, what I hear from the HD650 sounds completely false. No matter the drums were amplified during the live event or not. There is most of the snare drum crash sound lost on the HD650. The resulting sound is more of a fart while sitting on the armchair. The overall resolution, accuracy and speed of the HD650 is far below HD800's abilities. There is just no comparison. It's a budget family car against a sports car. You can read in the User's Manual what the HD650 were designed for. There is a funny passage about "new listening habits" saying nothing more than people don't want accurate and analytical sound after all. Reading between the notes - the HD600's, being overall more accurate became a PITA for many "hi-fi" equipment users giving unbearable sound which in fact wasn't their fault but caused by sound quality provided by equipment with the hi-fi sticker. So, Sennheiser had to prepare a product being pleasantly sounding from any device inluding onboard PC sound cards. The recipe for this is simple and visible on FR graphs with no 1/3 octave smoothing - bumped up bass and lower midrange together with deeply cut frequencies past 10kHz.

Well, to begin with I think we're talking about two different things. You're talking about some kind of rock concert and I'm talking about a symphony concert at the Sydney Opera House. With classical the major requirement is balance and a sense of weight and timbre to the instruments, whereas with rock detail, speed and a wide FR are paramount. There is very little in classical above 10khz, so the rolloff is relatively unimportant. What is important is the very even FR throughout the graph--and you only have to compare it to the graphs of several other much-admired phones to realize how even it is. And incidentally, what you describe as bumped up bass and lower midrange and rolled off treble represents just about the ideal curve as described by Headroom in their explanation of how to interpret the graphs. All those headphones I've heard that show a more even FR (the AKG K702 and K601 in particular) have sounded much too bright to my ears.
 
What I'm saying, and I stick to it, is that what I hear when I listen to a GOOD recording of a symphony orchestra with the 650, is very similar in balance and tone to what I hear at a symphony concert. I don't say I would have the same impression if I were trying to replicate a rock concert. I may find the 650 severely lacking, but I have no interest in rock so that's a moot point. I've always maintained that the 650 was designed for classical. That will be argued over through many threads, but it's a conclusion based on much experience with this phone. I'm happy to concede that the 800 is superior in every other genre, and may even be superior in classical where the recording is exeptionally good, but for general use with less-than-perfect material the 650 seems to me the ideal compromise. If I were to change it would be in the direction of the Audeze LCD-2, as frankly I would not want a brighter phone than the 650 no matter how accurate it could be shown to be. I just couldn't live with it.
 
Incidentally, your analogy of the budget family car versus sport car is interesting in that I  have always chosen budget family cars over sports cars, and it has nothing to do with economics.

 

[sphinxvc]

Quote:

Is it not a defect if a headphone needs colored gear to sound right?  Maybe you can get around it and wind up with a headphone you love, but I still think that's a defect, or if defect is too strong a word, a fault.  Anytime a headphone has very specific amp requirements that are unrelated to voltage/current (example: HE6), I think it is likely because the headphone is colored in a way that needs fixing by colored gear.  That's why the K701 is so fussy about amps (and genres).  And in a way, a headphone being really power hungry is a fault as well, or at least a weakness, even if it is one you can buy your way out of. 
 

 
I understand what you're saying but at the same time, I feel the ends justify the means in audio.  

 

[EddieE]

Quote:

Quote:
 

I understand what you're saying but at the same time, I feel the ends justify the means in audio.  

 There are plenty of top class headphones which do not need specific gear to make them sound right - that's what makes them top class headphones IMO.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Yes it does. My point being about major corporations appealing to particular demographics. Whether it be an electronics company, or news conglomerates, they all need to copy each other to stay competitive and keep up with the Joneses.

 
For sake of argument let's say I agree; Sennheiser and Beyerdynamic release headphones around the same time to share the same dollar-to-dollar market... this does not answer why after all these years a seemingly new resolution of audio has appeared.
 
Taking the HD600 for instance, I like them and find the sound neutral, however they're missing the highs of the DT880... Sennheiser simply create a headphone that fixes these 'faults' and builds a new similarly priced headphone. Beyerdynamic at the same time know the DT880 is there best neutral current-production headphone however like the fun of the DT990 and merge the strengths of the two to create a new similarly priced headphone.
 
In light of current headphone events, we'll call it the great headphone flood of 2009 or perhaps the Beats phenomena; where the average listener would happily pay $300 for a not-so-great sound just because the headphones looked cool. How does this reflect on the audiophile market? Headphones quadruple in price, red cords make way for shiny metal, Dr Dre packaging turns into a fancy box and so on.
 
With these newly created headphones at quadruple the price people in turn hear a new level of audio, much higher fidelity than has ever before been heard in a headphone. In reality it's a small tweak, a fox in sheep's clothing... those who find bliss in Sony SAs, DT48s go gaga for the HD800s... likewise those who like the sound signature of the Beyers cannot resist the all metal bassier variant of the T1 and so the story begins.

 

[immtbiker]

With regards to Dr. Dre Beats, we all know that people who are not hobbyists (and even those that are), are sheep. They want to have what everyone else has. It's beyond me how marketing made such a headphone so popular. A lady on a plane asked a young person if they were were good headphones, and he responded, "the best". Then I show her my 600's and she compared them to the beats (long flight, and I'm sure that he had 128kbps files), but it took her one song to see what I meant. The Beats owner was crushed. She even was wise enough to ask me if Bose would be the same way. I don't know how Dr. Dre got in so soilidly, but even American Idol uses them exclusively (including having their logo on amps and hats).
Unfortunately, this has always been the society that we live in.
I personally think that the beats are fuggly, so besides wanting to fit in, I don't see the attraction. But this is the way that it is, and I'm sure that there are hobbies that we are naive to, (pens, motorcycle upgrades, bicycle components), so to each his own.

 

[Mercuttio]

I'm so incredibly pleased with the image of you wearing HD600s on a cross country flight of some kind. Please tell me they were HD600s.
 
What really REALLY amuses me about the Beats though is the pressure they must have put on Bose. Not really a fan of either of the companies, but after all the stuff that Bose has pulled over the years, I love that they're being outdone at their own game.
 
Quote:

With regards to Dr. Dre Beats, we all know that people who are not hobbyists (and even those that are), are sheep. They want to have what everyone else has. It's beyond me how marketing made such a headphone so popular. A lady on a plane asked a young person if they were were good headphones, and he responded, "the best". Then I show her my 600's and she compared them to the beats (long flight, and I'm sure that he had 128kbps files), but it took her one song to see what I meant. The Beats owner was crushed. She even was wise enough to ask me if Bose would be the same way. I don't know how Dr. Dre got in so soilidly, but even American Idol uses them exclusively (including having their logo on amps and hats).
Unfortunately, this has always been the society that we live in.
I personally think that the beats are fuggly, so besides wanting to fit in, I don't see the attraction. But this is the way that it is, and I'm sure that there are hobbies that we are naive to, (pens, motorcycle upgrades, bicycle components), so to each his own.

 

 

[brasewel]

Oh man, wish I was on that plane. Would have laughed at that so hard 

 

[High_Q]

  Quote below gave me a chuckle.
 
Quote:

What really REALLY amuses me about the Beats though is the pressure they must have put on Bose. Not really a fan of either of the companies, but after all the stuff that Bose has pulled over the years, I love that they're being outdone at their own game.

Anyway, I don't understand why people think that HD650 is not detailed or have resolution.   Is it because of it lack of sparkle, and people think the sharp treble results in higher resolution?  I have yet to hear anything with such great detail.  I have listened to HD800 at a meet, but it was too sparkly for my taste as my ears have adjusted to my HD650, and it is indeed detailed.  
 
People that believe that HD800 has more resolution or details, can you back up your statements with any sort of reasons or evidence?  I would really like to hear you out.  As for accuracy of tones, I think HD650 is accurate sound wise, but not accurate to recordings because most recordings are flawed, its not natural sounding.  If you hear sibilance, its the result of recording, its recording is not true in my opinion.  True recording is when outputted by a neutral source, it doesn't add or delete from nature of real sound.  HD650 hide the sibilance, yet it doesn't hide details.  If you listen to it at first, it sounds veiled because people are so used to sparkly sound when produced from an electrical source, but if you listen to it long enough, your ears adjust to the sound and I can say everything sounds natural and detailed.  Not to mention that it needs to be properly amped for its potential.
 
As for the post about expensive cars vs economical cars.  Come on... you should know better than to use such a cheap analogy.  To me, it sounds like a personal justfication for buying a simple electrical equipment that cost above 1.5K. 
 
 

 

[johnwmclean]

pp312, I do follow your arguments and I have no gripes with what you’ve bought into this discussion.
 
Still... I feel the urge to crash tackle you, stop your mouth flapping and attach a pair of HD800’s upon your noggin which would be connected to a top notch amp and source, classical of course your favourite.
 
Then, maybe then your commentary would hold a little weight.
 
This is in my sincerest humor,
 
 

 

[maverickronin]

Is it so hard to believe that someone will prefer a particular sound sig over sheer technical prowess? I've heard the HD800 on several high end rigs and I still think I'd prefer the HD650s.

I say 'think' because I might be able to fix the problems I have with the HD800 with some EQ. I know my HD650s need the last octave worth of bass EDed up quite a bit so it wouldn't be fair to compare the HD800 against it without some tweaking. From what I've heard though, I think it's likely that the problem I have with the HD800s treble is something a bit more than that 6kHz spike and it might be something that can't be fixed by simply adjusting FR.

On the other hand, for $1150 more, one can make the argument that you shouldn't have to tweak anything...

 

[epocs]

Interesting to see these two headphones being legitimately compared.
 
As someone who's owned both, it was a no brainer! The HD800 was in my opinion the CLEARLY superior headphone, and there were no ifs, ands, or buts. It's very odd to see such differing opinions but then again everyone hears differently.
 
Don't get me wrong, the HD650 is an excellent headphone. It's just the HD800 takes them to a whole new level of headphone experience.

 

[dallan]

Well I have been in the boat of trying to convince myself that a fairly good phone i own is as good or i love it so as not to jump on a higher level phone that was economically difficult to swing.  I did that with the esw9 until i got the Ed8 LE for a portable and the Triple-fi 10 until i gave in and got the JH13s.  Heck, I tried to convince myself that with the HD800s and the Omegas, until i heard the Omega/Blue Hawaiian set again, I would love to get that set up but I have to be content with what i have at this point. The Omega/Blue Hawaiian is the only setup that I have heard that tops the 800s with a good tube amp and some nice copper cables.  I have heard many other top tiers with the exception of the T1 and HE6, they just haven't been around at the local meets yet.  My poor 650s though,  I used them transportable for a while until i got the Ed8 LE but now they just gather dust.  Every time i put them on, thinking how good they were with the Zana Deux, I feel i am just missing so much music that they only last a short while and they are back on the shelf.