[SRKRAM]

I haven't tried pad swapping, but with the D7200s the sound doesn't change much when I move my ears. I find that some headphones are quite sensitive to this.

 

[Jimster480]

What is the MM-400 like for deep house and vocals id be using them more with an Magni 3 then portable for desktop use. Was also looking at the oppo's

Its got great vocals and instrument separation.
I listened to an entire week of Drum & Bass / House / Future Trance and it was wonderful.

I also listen to Jazz, Classical (Strings & Piano) aswell as Rap & Hip-Hop + R&B.

Honestly the MM400 is better than the D7200 across multiple Genres. The D7200 excels in Rap/Hip-Hop but even in R&B the Vocals can bring out that nasty ringing constantly which makes the headphone very fatiguing to listen to.

The D7200 has a "concert" sound which means that the Bass is emphasized as this is how a live concert would sound from a typical rock/pop artist.
However in an orchestra or at a live jazz performance, bass is not emphasized and strings are more focused or surrounding Piano. Therefore something like the D7200 sounds very unnatural.

I have not followed this thread for a while, so yesterday I was lurking a little... well, I must say at a certain point in time I asked myself if my D7200 is somewhat defective or simply a different headphones with regards to what I was reading.

If I compare my D7200 with my Utopia, my HEKv2, my (just sold) Z1R, with friend's LCD4 and 009 and some other cans, even if I try hard I cannot hear ultra bloated bass and recessed mids. Gosh, I must be deaf, since I also cannot hear that so disturbing ringing. Actually what I'm hearing is a very musical, very engaging, neutral/bass-ish sound, detailed and trasparent, with linear and never disturbing highs. And this is with many amplifier I tried, my own Halgorythme 300B and 2A3, my own Auralic Taurus MKII, friend's Viva 2A3 and some others.

Sure everyone has his own ears and taste, but really we should all measure words and maybe put somewere an "IMHO" or a "for my liking", since someone who reads here could think that this D7200 is just a piece of garbage, which is DEFINITELY not.

You can like or not D7200, that's normal and for sure not debatable, but this is a great headphone, sold at a great price (with regards to what the market offers today). Again, you can like it or not, no question, but there are many people who likes it (like me) and consider this headphone the best bang for buck you can have below 1k$. To the point that I have sold my Sony Z1R simply because I like my D7200 much more (again, that's simply to my ears).

No polemic inteded with the above, just to write down some thoughts I got reading the last pages of this thread.

The D7200 with this sort of major flaw (ringing) and overly recessed highs (just look at the frequency response & CSD charts available via google) is definitely not worth the price when there are better offerings.
As you said this is upto peoples tastes in music too, but if you cannot hear the 2.5k ringing or the recessed highs it might be that your hearing is damaged honestly. For me it came out in 10 minutes, and my wife didn't notice it at first but within about 20 minutes of playing her Casio Organ with it on she asked me about it because she was starting to get a headache (I didn't want to tell her, to see if she would hear it).
Then I told her and she heard it every time.

 

[ruhenheiM]

have you ask replacement? or try other sample. maybe you got a defected item?


btw any comparison between denon d7200 with jvc dx1000?

have you guys seen this?
http://www.klipsch.com/products/hp-3-headphones
the driver also using free edge bio dynamic drivers.also it is 52mm though when d7200, i think using 50mm. if i'm not mistaken the klipsch drivers being supplied by foster

 

[zolkis]

have you guys seen this?
http://www.klipsch.com/products/hp-3-headphones
the driver also using free edge bio dynamic drivers.also it is 52mm though when d7200, i think using 50mm. if i'm not mistaken the klipsch drivers being supplied by foster

The HP-3 is an open headphone, not to be compared with the D7200, unless the HP-3 can also get an optional closed cup, in which case I might buy one.

The D7200 has a "concert" sound which means that the Bass is emphasized as this is how a live concert would sound from a typical rock/pop artist.
However in an orchestra or at a live jazz performance, bass is not emphasized and strings are more focused or surrounding Piano. Therefore something like the D7200 sounds very unnatural.

The D7200 with this sort of major flaw (ringing) and overly recessed highs (just look at the frequency response & CSD charts available via google) is definitely not worth the price when there are better offerings.
As you said this is upto peoples tastes in music too, but if you cannot hear the 2.5k ringing or the recessed highs it might be that your hearing is damaged honestly. For me it came out in 10 minutes, and my wife didn't notice it at first but within about 20 minutes of playing her Casio Organ with it on she asked me about it because she was starting to get a headache (I didn't want to tell her, to see if she would hear it).
Then I told her and she heard it every time.

Don't generalize from one headphone. Mine doesn't ring that much (on the CSD), but it has too much midrange energy (see the spectrogram below). Also, mine is not bass-heavy, see the FR below.
After mods, the bass is better (it's how I like it), still ain't TH900 level but very close, instead the mids are smoother, and the highs improved. Sounds very good.

Stock D7200 spectrogram. See the accentuated mids. It is not shy on treble either, just has a notch.


D7200 + mods: smoother mids + highs, better bass.


Comparative FR. Red: stock. Green: modded.


Stock CSD:


Modded CSD:


IMHO the spectrograms are more expressive in how measurements correlate with listening, but FR and CSD are useful for spotting issues.
Again, I would agree the stock D7200 has a bit too much midrange, and relatively subdued treble, but it's not bass-heavy, at least not mine.
My earlier post about sample variation probably applies. Also, there is difference among upstream equipment as well.

 

[ruhenheiM]

The HP-3 is an open headphone, not to be compared with the D7200, unless the HP-3 can also get an optional closed cup, in which case I might buy one.

i know. i was talking about the drivers

 

[Jimster480]

The HP-3 is an open headphone, not to be compared with the D7200, unless the HP-3 can also get an optional closed cup, in which case I might buy one.



Don't generalize from one headphone. Mine doesn't ring that much (on the CSD), but it has too much midrange energy (see the spectrogram below). Also, mine is not bass-heavy, see the FR below.
After mods, the bass is better (it's how I like it), still ain't TH900 level but very close, instead the mids are smoother, and the highs improved. Sounds very good.

Stock D7200 spectrogram. See the accentuated mids. It is not shy on treble either, just has a notch.


D7200 + mods: smoother mids + highs, better bass.


Comparative FR. Red: stock. Green: modded.


Stock CSD:


Modded CSD:


IMHO the spectrograms are more expressive in how measurements correlate with listening, but FR and CSD are useful for spotting issues.
Again, I would agree the stock D7200 has a bit too much midrange, and relatively subdued treble, but it's not bass-heavy, at least not mine.
My earlier post about sample variation probably applies. Also, there is difference among upstream equipment as well.

Ringing is very apparent and appears over the rest of the music when it starts.

Also I'm not just testing one headphone here, I have many headphones.

Notice on your spectrogram that the red part appears where the ring is. Which is exactly in line with what I wrote about. its apparent and louder than the rest of the music.
Spectrogram's are based on decibel levels which obviously you know. That looks like a pretty fatiguing listening experience considering the different in sound.

 

[Jimster480]

have you ask replacement? or try other sample. maybe you got a defected item?


btw any comparison between denon d7200 with jvc dx1000?

have you guys seen this?
http://www.klipsch.com/products/hp-3-headphones
the driver also using free edge bio dynamic drivers.also it is 52mm though when d7200, i think using 50mm. if i'm not mistaken the klipsch drivers being supplied by foster

Defective how?
Its not defective. But I do find it funny that in literally every thread on this forum as soon as I don't like something people always ask me about "defective equipment".
Its just that I am scientific and listen to things realistically and most people don't seem to care and also kill their hearing with super high volumes.
Most other kids I met going to school would blast their headphones so loud that they were surely mostly deaf. I imagine its the same with this forum, especially considering the information I read every day pertaining to the amount of power a given headphone requires or how headphones sound. Or how people don't hear extremely annoying loud asf ringing in a headphone almost immediately after putting it on.....

 

[ruhenheiM]

Defective how?
Its not defective. But I do find it funny that in literally every thread on this forum as soon as I don't like something people always ask me about "defective equipment".
Its just that I am scientific and listen to things realistically and most people don't seem to care and also kill their hearing with super high volumes.
Most other kids I met going to school would blast their headphones so loud that they were surely mostly deaf. I imagine its the same with this forum, especially considering the information I read every day pertaining to the amount of power a given headphone requires or how headphones sound. Or how people don't hear extremely annoying loud asf ringing in a headphone almost immediately after putting it on.....

if you scientific then you should know every companies have their own quality control policies. you know in real life, crap happen... what i'm saying is it's your money, if you find it problem and it's still under warranty. don't you think it's logical to ask for replacement? unless you've done that,and it's the same outcome then the headphone is problematic for you. just sell or give it to someone. problem solved. if you still curious, do some mod.try to solve those ringing

if you have experience with many headphones, of any kind, you know each headphones have their own sensitivities, added with their own load impedance, and their own power handling then you have a many variations of how many power needed to the headphones to deliver an adequate listening volume. also to make it sound right. just because you get the adequate listening volume, doesn't mean you get the right amount of power.sometimes it's imbalance between left and right channel,sometimes distortion, sometimes bloated bass. if you have a highly sensitive and low impedance headphones, you should be glad you won't need powerful amplifier to driver those. and also amplifier not always deliver the same amount of power or stability in volume control. some amplifier could handle it better in low volumes,some in high volumes,some have great stability across entire volume control and usually that amplifier very pricey.

also not every human listen the same thing, as generalize as it is, there is this thing called anomaly, like some human could listen higher than 20khz, also with age, human hearing ability also change, sure there are some other variables could affect human hearing just like listening to loud volume. but define loud? each human have their own tolerance of certain thing.like spicy food.some could eat like really spicy without any problem,some couldn't. pain, some could handle as much as pain as possible,some couldn't. same thing.maybe you hearing more sensitive from others.maybe the headphone have nasty ringing. or it is possible that you've got defective product. you haven't check it with other samples anyway. so the possibilities still open. pretty sure if you want to testing something in scientific you have to run it several times so you could get consistent result

 

[Jimster480]

if you scientific then you should know every companies have their own quality control policies. you know in real life, **** happen... what i'm saying is it's your money, if you find it problem and it's still under warranty. don't you think it's logical to ask for replacement? unless you've done that,and it's the same outcome then the headphone is problematic for you. just sell or give it to someone. problem solved. if you still curious, do some mod.try to solve those ringing

if you have experience with many headphones, of any kind, you know each headphones have their own sensitivities, added with their own load impedance, and their own power handling then you have a many variations of how many power needed to the headphones to deliver an adequate listening volume. also to make it sound right. just because you get the adequate listening volume, doesn't mean you get the right amount of power.sometimes it's imbalance between left and right channel,sometimes distortion, sometimes bloated bass. if you have a highly sensitive and low impedance headphones, you should be glad you won't need powerful amplifier to driver those. and also amplifier not always deliver the same amount of power or stability in volume control. some amplifier could handle it better in low volumes,some in high volumes,some have great stability across entire volume control and usually that amplifier very pricey.

also not every human listen the same thing, as generalize as it is, there is this thing called anomaly, like some human could listen higher than 20khz, also with age, human hearing ability also change, sure there are some other variables could affect human hearing just like listening to loud volume. but define loud? each human have their own tolerance of certain thing.like spicy food.some could eat like really spicy without any problem,some couldn't. pain, some could handle as much as pain as possible,some couldn't. same thing.maybe you hearing more sensitive from others.maybe the headphone have nasty ringing. or it is possible that you've got defective product. you haven't check it with other samples anyway. so the possibilities still open. pretty sure if you want to testing something in scientific you have to run it several times so you could get consistent result

I didn't buy it first hand from Denon, but I bought it BNIB.
Second of all considering the CSD graphs of this headphone (just like the ones posted above) the ringing is QUITE APPARANT in all of them. So why would I try to exchange something that clearly is flawed for another piece of flawed gear?
Its not even worth my time lol

I will just put it for sale after this headphone meet I am going to, unless someone there wants this flawed HP instead.

Honestly I am a bit angry about this headphone because I was expecting alot more, this is my first foray into $1000+ headphones and its a major disappointment with such a flaw.

You are right that for some people the tolerance is different or what bothers them is different, but considering that its a pretty clear ringing.... I cannot imagine anyone with good hearing realisically sits down and listens to these for 4-8 hours a day.
Because I basically work 8+ hours a day at my PC and use my headphones the whole time.

 

[phaeton70]

The D7200 with this sort of major flaw (ringing) and overly recessed highs (just look at the frequency response & CSD charts available via google) is definitely not worth the price when there are better offerings.
As you said this is upto peoples tastes in music too, but if you cannot hear the 2.5k ringing or the recessed highs it might be that your hearing is damaged honestly. For me it came out in 10 minutes, and my wife didn't notice it at first but within about 20 minutes of playing her Casio Organ with it on she asked me about it because she was starting to get a headache (I didn't want to tell her, to see if she would hear it).
Then I told her and she heard it every time.

Last time I checked (1 year ago) my hearing was almost perfect up to 16k.

re measurement, I have experienced perfectly measuring hps sounding very poorly, and viceversa. I have been in this hobby for more than 30 years now, and since long time I consider measurement just a nice to have.
Specifically for hps measurements, the non deterministic variables are so many that basically every measurement is different, and can be compared only with a measurement made by exactly the same person, with exactly the same equipments and exactly in the same situation (which is basically impossible).

Just like some other are suggesting, you may have a defective D7200, or maybe your hearing is too much sensitive around 2.5k and you may have a roll off in the highs.

what I honestly don't understand is: if you consider D7200 so crappy, why did you buy it, and more important why didn't you sell it long ago? It's completely useless to have an hps that is so wrong for you. Sell it, go in some hps show or a good shop, try some hps, find one you like, buy it and possibly start a new thread to share your impressions on your new hps. I have personally done the same with some hps, last one is the Sony Z1R, which is not crappy by ANY means, indeed a great hps, I sold it simply because it was wrong for me. Keeping coming here saying D7200 is a bad hps won't correct the defects you are hearing in your own D7200.

 

[zolkis]

Let's try to make something out of this.
What I call ringing appears as a long ridge on the CSD. I've seen a lot of bad ringing, but at least my D7200 has very little of that. But I have called attention to the spectrogram which shows there is too much midrange with the stock unit.

If one listens to the headphones without the pads, notice the honky sound. Put the pads on, and it's diminished, but not completely.
Now depending on pad variation and midrange sensitivity of hearing, this is disturbing or not. I know I have slightly elevated hearing sensitivity between 1-4 kHz, and it's quite common. The Fletcher-Munson curves intend to model that.

I agree that if someone states a problem, we shouldn't dismiss it as having a defective unit, especially since others have similar issue, I counted 3 so far. As I said before, there likely is some variation among units.

Possible solutions :
1. Try other pads. However, the issue may be with the foam damper around the driver.
2. Match with synergistic equipment. This is a questionable kludge.
3. Try other units to check whether you have a personal problem with the phone.
4. Sell it.

I should also add that there seem to be much more people who like the D7200 as it is, than those who dislike it.

 

[Jimster480]

Let's try to make something out of this.
What I call ringing appears as a long ridge on the CSD. I've seen a lot of bad ringing, but at least my D7200 has very little of that. But I have called attention to the spectrogram which shows there is too much midrange with the stock unit.

If one listens to the headphones without the pads, notice the honky sound. Put the pads on, and it's diminished, but not completely.
Now depending on pad variation and midrange sensitivity of hearing, this is disturbing or not. I know I have slightly elevated hearing sensitivity between 1-4 kHz, and it's quite common. The Fletcher-Munson curves intend to model that.

I agree that if someone states a problem, we shouldn't dismiss it as having a defective unit, especially since others have similar issue, I counted 3 so far. As I said before, there likely is some variation among units.

Possible solutions :
1. Try other pads. However, the issue may be with the foam damper around the driver.
2. Match with synergistic equipment. This is a questionable kludge.
3. Try other units to check whether you have a personal problem with the phone.
4. Sell it.

I should also add that there seem to be much more people who like the D7200 as it is, than those who dislike it.

I think I am just going to take #4.
I don't want to mess around with modding it (#1).
#2 I already tried 3 different Amps, 2 phones and a keyboard. The sound is identical from all of them (with the ringing).
#3 too much work to send back / get a replacement.

 

[zolkis]

I think I am just going to take #4.
I don't want to mess around with modding it (#1).

I can understand that. IMHO you are right right to be angry with them, Denon should have done a better job fine-tuning the headphone. However, IMHO the stock D7200 sounds better than headphones in its price range (Nightowl, PM3, TH610, etc) but YMMV. The driver IMHO is very good.

As for me, I am happy with the mod (I hope the two spectrograms give a hint about how the sound changed). For the record, it is a Stax 007 brown pad, with foam inlay cut by me and selected measuring about 7-8 variants. In other words, very hard to replicate. I wish Denon shipped this headphone with this kind of tuning - it sounds exquisitely good to my ears, a far cry better than other closed headphones, including the Z1R.
I have also tested with stock 007 pads and the results were near - if someone wants an easy mod, get 007 replacement pads. They will last for many-many years. Even the plastic mounting rings can be fit in the 007 pads, but I prefer without them, using 2 side adhesive tape stripes to fix the pads to the housing.

The steps to do the Stax 007 pad mod:
1. get Stax 007 pads (either brown or black available), the brown goes very well with the D7200 too. Optionally go to step 5. If you are happy with the sound, forget the rest.
2. fold out the leather and take the foam filling out
3. cut off the 4 mm thick white styrol ring from the foam
4. put back the foam (or other foam ring of your choice) and fold back the leather
5. assemble the pads on the housing (either by the rings or by adhesive stripes).

In the same time I managed to further improve the TH900 as well with modded Lawton pads, and it's very close to the modded D7200 now, a bit more colored in the mids and having bigger deep bass impact (but Denon has more midbass impact). That change is easier to replicate and sounds nearly identical to the modded 007 pads, but with a bit more treble and a bit more open. FR is nearly the same. It would be personal which one would choose, but neither has ringing.

The steps to do it are not the simplest though:
1. get Lawton pads, and optionally go to step 8. If you are happy with the sound, forget the rest.
2. fold the inner flaps over the pads and open the sewing from the inner perimeter so that the dust grill comes off
3. the inner edge of the leather pads are glued to a plastic ring (quite bad design IMHO), remove it with care
4. now you can take out the foam filling
5. cut the foam filling in half height
6. put back one half in the pads, fold back the leather (from the inside), hold it on the housing and listen to it without gluing it yet. Test the upper and lower half of the foam, which one do you like more.
7. put back the foam of choice, glue back the leather (either using double sided adhesive strips or final glue - one that stays flexible)
8. assemble the pads on the housing (either by the rings or by adhesive stripes).

I can well understand why someone would not like to do this, I'd say maybe one in a hundred would do it, I have just put it here for the record. Of course you can try a stock Lawton pad as well, it's quite universal and will last long since it's real leather. The Stax 007 pads are about the same price, and even better quality. They are also very easy to mod, since no sewing is to be broken, you can just fold out the leather and exchange the foam part to whatever you like most. This gives you a lot of options for personal fine-tuning.

When the driver of a headphone is so good as the D7200's but someone is not pleased with the stock unit, IMHO it may be worth taking the risk to explore new pads, especially when it costs a fraction of a cable or equipment change, and makes far more difference.

 

[ngatts]

I managed to score a pair of Elears for $500 and received them today, and am comparing them to my D7200 headphones. Mine don't exhibit any ringing or any other strangeness that I can find and are fully stock. I'm running them off a Schiit Bifrost and Asgard 2 stack.

D7200 vs Elear:

Bass: The Elear's bass is present and well extended, perhaps even goes a little lower beyond the D7200. However, the D7200 has much nicer texturing/richness. Also, like all the Fostex based headphones I've tried, it can amplify almost endlessly and add some real power to the low end. I've never heard the TH900, but reportedly not as high as that though. For me, it's about the right amount without interfering with the rest of the music. The Elears' low end seem to hit at wall at 40% volume on my Asgard 2, after that the higher frequencies take over and become louder.

Mid range: More present on the Elear, and none of the dips that I've experienced with the D7200 in male voices. Supposedly there is an upper midrange hole on the Elear but I haven't encountered that yet, so it at least seems to be less of an issue overall for me than the dips on the D7200 were. Detailing is very slightly better on the Elear.

Treble: Veiled for sure on the Elear. Some have said that the D7200 is also veiled but from what I'm hearing, not nearly as much as these. The Elears are definitely going to be my go to cans for relaxed listening now. I'm still trying to decide which headphone has better overall treble detailing, they're both pretty good. The Elear does beat the D7200 in speed though. Sharp, quick sounds such as beeps/cymbals are noticeably cleaner on the Elear. Treble is slightly warmer on the D7200.


For me at least, both of these cans are surprisingly complementary to each other.

 

[Jimster480]

I brought the D7200 to a meet yesterday and many people really like it.
It was the favorite headphone to pass around for 3-4 guys, the other was my Oppo PM-2.
But honestly a few guys really love the D7200.

We determined something, and I understand this thread more now. The Ringing is not so easy to hear if you are mid 30s+ (atleast for most of the guys there).
Us young guys (I'm 27) can easily hear it and are annoyed by it almost immediately when the ringing comes out in any song.
Once we isolated the ringing with a virtual keyboard (organ) the older guys all lined up to hear the ringing. They could all hear it if they tried but it was subtle for them yet striking for us.
https://virtualpiano.net/ <-- The keyboard we used, about 75% of the way through it will make the noise around 4 keys in varying degrees.

If there was no ringing in this headphone it would be really nice, so I can understand why some people really love it since they are older / unable to hear the ringing unless they look for it.