Decibels, distortion, amplifiers and golden ears
Jul 30, 2007 at 9:16 PM Post #136 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Agreed 100%. This is the first time I've had to use the ignore function on head-fi. I enjoy a passionate debate, but in this case I don't know if I should be laughing or be crying that this person has reproduced.


If you have me on ignore, then why are you posting here now?

Do you not see how viciously insulting your comment about me reproducing is?

What have I done to you to warrant such a vile statement?

That is the sort of statement usually reserved for serial killers or even worse.

Why is it that you feel that way about me?

Because I challenge your preconceptions and make a good case?
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 9:55 PM Post #137 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you answered me, I honestly don't remember. Perhaps you could refresh my memory.


Quote:

Originally Posted by eightbitpotion
So you agree that one buys an amp based on what sounds best to them. That's why one is worth a difference in price. If you look at super high-end headphone amps, you'll start noticing that you pay for a lot more than lack of distortion...you're paying for build quality, technology....and yes...a bit for those wonderful caps and wires that put a wall up in front of that distortion. You pay for a lot of things when you buy an amp...I know I can buy the parts to make a wonderful amp, but put it in a cardboard box, and if someone else makes the exact same amp, but spends a few days making a custom cabinet for it they'l be getting more money than I'd get myself.



You're summarized search for why some amps are better than others is based off of equations of distortion, which is awesome if that's what makes you save money on purchases. My statement is explaining that distortion is NOT what you're paying high-dollar for, but rather the sound in general, and the build-quality or maybe even simple brand name. I was hasty to state that it was a question, but based off of your OP, it was apparent that you indeed questioned this... so I treated it as so.
___

If you see a group of guys/girls (audiophiles)....say 20 of them, and you walk up and say "Hey guys there's no reason to pay the high-dollars for these amps because the distortion is SO little it won't MATTER!!!" ...and they all look at you and say something like "but you pay for more than that". After that is said...you wouldn't name off where you bought all of your used equipment...as if it's relevant. You also wouldn't keep arguing your point as if someone disagreed with you. No one would do any of this because it'd make themselves look like an ass.
blink.gif
I think that's why people keep saying you have a weird style on here.... but I can't speak for anyone else, that's just what I see.

You're still arguing as though you have something to prove, but you don't. You just have a weird style of writting, or perhaps just a weird perspective idk. I thought I was done on here, but I accidentally refreshed :-\ sorry v_v.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 9:57 PM Post #138 of 790
Quote:

I enjoy a passionate debate, but in this case I don't know if I should be laughing or be crying that this person has reproduced.


That was really uncalled for.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 10:10 PM Post #139 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by eightbitpotion /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You're summarized search for why some amps are better than others is based off of equations of distortion, which is awesome if that's what makes you save money on purchases. My statement is explaining that distortion is NOT what you're paying high-dollar for, but rather the sound in general, and the build-quality or maybe even simple brand name. I was hasty to state that it was a question, but based off of your OP, it was apparent that you indeed questioned this... so I treated it as so.


OK, the thread(s) about the distortion test fairly conclusively proved that the great majority of people cannot hear non linearities in sound very well.

If that is so, then what is it you *are* hearing between one amp and another who's specs are far better than the distortion test?

That is my basic question.
___

Quote:

If you see a group of guys/girls (audiophiles)....say 20 of them, and you walk up and say "Hey guys there's no reason to pay the high-dollars for these amps because the distortion is SO little it won't MATTER!!!" ...and they all look at you and say something like "but you pay for more than that". After that is said...you wouldn't name off where you bought all of your used equipment...as if it's relevant. You also wouldn't keep arguing your point as if someone disagreed with you. No one would do any of this because it'd make themselves look like an ass.
blink.gif
I think that's why people keep saying you have a weird style on here.... but I can't speak for anyone else, that's just what I see.


I know I'm weird, I think I have stated that at least a couple of times. But weird doesn't always mean wrong. Most truly creative people are well outside the norm, if they weren't then they wouldn't be truly creative.

Our culture rewards conformity and punishes creativity, I find that very sad.

Quote:

You're still arguing as though you have something to prove, but you don't. You just have a weird style of writting, or perhaps just a weird perspective idk. I thought I was done on here, but I accidentally refreshed :-\ sorry v_v.


Look at how I've been treated simply because I disagree with what appears to be the majority here. Is the abuse sent my way really and truly justified?
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 10:44 PM Post #140 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have a tendency to start very long and often acrimonious threads.


Ok, just to point out. I don't have any problems with what you are TRYING TO SAY. What makes the problem with your threads is the manner in which you state things, a constant overtone of aggressiveness and a sense of superiority in your phrasing. I am a guilty of doing that too, I try to give myself an acknowledgment of the problem, and attempt to reword things - you on the other hand defend yourself and continue with that manner. The unpleasant quality of the debates going on has purely to do with your manner of speaking here, and it would make it much easier if the statements were far more organized, with constant sense of what you are trying to say, and neatly stated conclusions, that do not point to yourself nor to others as to rightness or wrongness, but purely to the facts. This places alot of fault on you obviously, but it is easier for one person to change than for the other 20. We don't need to conform to thoughts/ideas, we need to conform to communication standards.

I repeat, I welcome the argument idea, I love the information discussed...but I hate the method with which everything is spoken. Mind you, your own superiority does not matter to what we are talking about originally, its about the actual electronics and human perception in general. Hopefully this summarizes as to why people feel agitated by majority of your statements, even though alot of these statements hold great deal of useful information.

returning to actual topic

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper
If that is so, then what is it you *are* hearing between one amp and another who's specs are far better than the distortion test?


That always puzzles me with flat frequency responses displayed. I guess the fact that headphones are usually a reactive load, how the amp responds to that will change the resulting tonality of the system.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 10:50 PM Post #141 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you prefer gear which has euphonious distortion then by all means buy that gear. But don't suggest that it is suitable for someone coming here as a total naive n00b just want some advice on what headphones to buy.


Why would this be inappropriate? Why should we assume that the noob in question would find "euphonious distortion" any less desireable than anyone else? It seems to me that you're wanting to set yourself up as the champion and protector of the new hobbyist, and that your standards represent all that is right and pure. But what if this mythical new hobbyist does not see things your way?

I'm also thinking that you're assuming that the new hobbyist doesn't have a brain in his head. People are smart enough to make their own decisions without it being assumed that they are being brainwashed if they don't see things your way.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 10:54 PM Post #142 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That was really uncalled for.


It's ok - he's a super-scientist audiophile without audiophile equipment who can hear better than 8 deer stickytaped together and measure anything, including Leonard Nimoy, with his waterfall equipment that only he is smart enough to use with his marine education and his two physician relatives. He doesn't know how to read a logarithmic plot or follow any train of thought other than his own, but nevermind - he was a marine at 19, batman at 16, and winner of the Nobel Prize for Misdirecting a Discussion - and he's prepared for any insult we can throw at him because nothing anyone says, least of all logical argument, can affect him.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:03 PM Post #143 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok, just to point out. I don't have any problems with what you are TRYING TO SAY. What makes the problem with your threads is the manner in which you state things, a constant overtone of aggressiveness and a sense of superiority in your phrasing. I am a guilty of doing that too, I try to give myself an acknowledgment of the problem, and attempt to reword things - you on the other hand defend yourself and continue with that manner.


A sense of superiority in my phrasing?

Do you mean that I write well?

Did you read the post where I was basically called unfit to reproduce?

How does that possibly compare to anything I have said here?

Quote:

The unpleasant quality of the debates going on has purely to do with your manner of speaking here, and it would make it much easier if the statements were far more organized, with constant sense of what you are trying to say, and neatly stated conclusions, that do not point to yourself nor to others as to rightness or wrongness, but purely to the facts.


So far I am the only one to post any scientific analysis of the distortion issue. I am also the only one to post spectrum analyzer plots that I have myself taken.

And yet you call me unorganized?

And my take on the unpleasantness of the debate is that I am challenging the conventional wisdom, something I do on a regular basis since I am a very unorthodox thinker.

Quote:

I repeat, I welcome the argument idea, I love the information discussed...but I hate the method with which everything is spoken. Mind you, your own superiority does not matter to what we are talking about originally, its about the actual electronics and human perception in general. Hopefully this summarizes as to why people feel agitated by majority of your statements, even though alot of these statements hold great deal of useful information.


Thank you for your input, I shall take it under consideration.

However, I am who I am and change at any age is difficult and becomes more difficult the older one becomes.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:05 PM Post #144 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is a book called, "This is your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin that does a very good job of discussing in psychological and memory terms of what we look for in our sound reproductions.


I am pushing this book as one that everyone should read in light of this thread.

Memory is very different from what most think given the research behind this book.

Anyone else read it yet?
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:07 PM Post #145 of 790
The insults keep coming.

Is that all you have?
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:08 PM Post #146 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It's ok - he's a super-scientist audiophile without audiophile equipment who can hear better than 8 deer stickytaped together and measure anything, including Leonard Nimoy, with his waterfall equipment that only he is smart enough to use with his marine education and his two physician relatives. He doesn't know how to read a logarithmic plot or follow any train of thought other than his own, but nevermind - he was a marine at 19, batman at 16, and winner of the Nobel Prize for Misdirecting a Discussion - and he's prepared for any insult we can throw at him because nothing anyone says, least of all logical argument, can affect him.



I seriously ROFLed reading that. Whew, needed a good laugh. The OP has a true knack, or should I say, fine honed skill, of implying. No direct attacks or insults mind you, but they are indeed implied straight to the heavens...


Ply
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:10 PM Post #147 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by plywood99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I seriously ROFLed reading that. Whew, needed a good laugh. The OP has a true knack, or should I say, fine honed skill, of implying. No direct attacks or insults mind you, but they are indeed implied straight to the heavens...


Ply



Implying what?
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:31 PM Post #148 of 790
Okay, I quit this thread. TheVinylRipper, I recommend you read one book, while taking a week of head-fi. "Interpersonal Communication and Human Relationships" by Mark L. Knapp and Anita L. Vangelisti, it should help you understand what I meant, I tried to speak softly when I stated my previous post. In other words - you don't know how to talk to people. You have good information means you brought graphs, numbers, calculations. Your writing methods are unorganized - because they are intermixed with talking about yourself in the statements, and how good you are, and how people offend you too much because they are offended by information... (does anyone here get offended by the idea that you can't hear THD below 1%? Say "I" please. Hell, thats stated as a fact on HeadWize).

Sense of superiority in your writing does not mean sense of your superiority cause you are smart...oh hell, I doubt you know mathematics and EE any better than I do, you are good in what you specialize in, but some of us here know how to design an amplifier and why exactly can 2 amplifiers sound different with the same headphone even though they are built to the same power and THD specs. Frankly sense of YOUR superiority in your statements is the type of where you are trying to be perceived as superior, and I wonder how that helps the arguement at all? You are good at staying calm...you are bad at phrasing things so you do not sound like you are here to offend everyone.

Once again, just because you have a good point to make, does not mean you should form an argument from the first thread (since you seem to always expect 1 in EVERY SINGLE POST), does not mean you should refuse to listen to people about your communication behavior, because your skills in sciences do not mean you are a skillful speaker (or I bet you would not need to limit your spendings to low budget products to achieve good sound, people who know how to talk well and have a good education get paid well).

Wait on top of that, did I mention that the fact that you were a marine when you were 19 kinda puts you down? I am sure it takes plenty of intelligence to work hard to become strong, and learn to use a gun to shoot accurately, and most importantly to obey orders. Yes thats an offense, I feel like you deserve one because you feel that you are not offensive if you are not calling anyone a jackass.

Oh, and here is another one, even though I am not allowed to do insults here, I think its worth it to because I have good basis for mine.

If you would like a tug of war as to what we listen to when we try different amplifiers, I'll tell you. Because there are things going on above 8 khz that we CAN hear (maybe not you, eh eh?), that vary plenty because all reactive loads become less predictable at high frequencies, due to parasite capacitances and inductances. Our ears are also less predictable in that range because alot of harmonics in the ears are really strange in their behavior at high frequencies, you know, the treble reverb is far more audible in a grand hall? Well, ears are a very tiny hall where treble will have reverb effects. There is plenty at work here that you do not seem to like to account for, instead bringing everything down to a simple matter of specs. Can you neatly in one sentence state the conclusion of your first post, and now add a few sentences as to where did any of us here ever worry about THD? I don't remember any but those mentioning few amplifiers with more than 1% THD (which are wickedly nice sounding by the way).

Cheers, I highly recommend that communications book.
 
Jul 30, 2007 at 11:47 PM Post #150 of 790
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have a tendency to start very long and often acrimonious threads.


I've been reading and following this thread, and haven't wanted to contribute to it primarily because I didn't want to extend it's life, but I wonder if the "tendency" you reference is by design. No offense, but quite a few of your threads/posts seem designed to start an argument or provoke people. Not that we don't all tend to do that from to time as we discuss this hobby, but it is typcially by accident, yet one gets the sense that your primary purpose on this forum is to provoke an acrimonious debate.

Indeed, just look at the comment regarding the Head-Fi greeting: "Welcome to Head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet." That is a comment frequently offered in the spirit of friendship to welcome new people to the forum, and it is fairly benign. Yet you find it "distasteful" and "offputting." (Even worse perhaps, you feel compelled to express your opinion that it is "distasteful" and "offputting" when you could keep that to yourself and not say something that obviously might antagonize some people.) You seem to want to find fault in a lot of places and to provoke on a lot of issues, and your threads also tend to have an undercurrent of "I'm smarter than everyone else and am here to educate others and save the fools from themselves." And this thread is not the only thread that is an example of that.

Maybe you should re-evaluate what your purpose is (or should be) in terms of your participation in this community.
smily_headphones1.gif
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top