[plywood99]

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Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Implying what?

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Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good morning everyone. This may well be my last post/thread here, I strongly suspect that my views upset more than a few of you and that is not my intention at all. I've been doing a little math and have come to some conclusions that I would like to share. The majority of high quality amplifiers these days have a distortion level of 0.01 percent or less. The formula for calculating decibel gain or loss for voltage or current is: Gain in dB = 20*(log base 10*(gain ratio)) http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_1/5.html 0.01% =1/10,000 or a ratio of 10,000/1 log 10,000=4 20*4=80 So the distortion level of modern amplifiers is approximately -80 dB down from their output. On this thread, the most golden eared audiophile who took the test could hear distortion down to approximately -40 dB. The formula for calculating decimal ratio from dB is: decimal ratio=10^(dB/20) Which gives us: 10^(40/20)=10^2=100 Therefore the most golden eared audiophile that took the test could only hear distortion down to 100 times that of the high quality amps which we have today. Even the best transducers (headphones, speakers, microphones) today have distortion far greater than 0.01%, personally from my own experience with phonograph cartridges I would guess closer to 1.0% Strangely enough that is the same ratio by which the most golden eared audiophiles heard distortion in the test to which I linked above. My conclusion therefore is that the differences in high quality amplifiers today are totally hidden by the distortion of the transducers through which we listen to those amplifiers. I welcome discussion on this subject. As I said at the beginning, my intention is not to cause anyone to become upset, it is rather to introduce some rationality into what I see as a somewhat irrational fixation on ever and ever better specs on amplification and/or DAC's.

Note your use of the phrase, " most golden eared audiophile." It practically drips pompous, condescending overtones.
Allow me to interpret one of your quoted sentences, "Strangely enough that is the same ratio by which these HeadFi fools heard distortion in the test to which I linked above."

You have continued to imply such thoughts throughout this thread. Maybe as Malos was saying you simply do not know how to communicate with people...


Ply


Lol, forgot about the last bold sentence. You,re intention, from the start, was to start controversy, not to have a lviely discussion...

 

[TheVinylRipper]

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Originally Posted by MaloS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay, I quit this thread. TheVinylRipper, I recommend you read one book, while taking a week of head-fi. "Interpersonal Communication and Human Relationships" by Mark L. Knapp and Anita L. Vangelisti, it should help you understand what I meant, I tried to speak softly when I stated my previous post. In other words - you don't know how to talk to people. You have good information means you brought graphs, numbers, calculations. Your writing methods are unorganized - because they are intermixed with talking about yourself in the statements, and how good you are, and how people offend you too much because they are offended by information... (does anyone here get offended by the idea that you can't hear THD below 1%? Say "I" please. Hell, thats stated as a fact on HeadWize).

Are you saying those throwing insults are better at communicating than I am?

Indeed, from my perspective they do get insulted because I do not back down when they make statements with no objective evidence.

Reproducible results are the basis of scientific research.

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You are good at staying calm...you are bad at phrasing things so you do not sound like you are here to offend everyone.

Could you give me some examples?

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Once again, just because you have a good point to make, does not mean you should form an argument from the first thread (since you seem to always expect 1 in EVERY SINGLE POST), does not mean you should refuse to listen to people about your communication behavior, because your skills in sciences do not mean you are a skillful speaker (or I bet you would not need to limit your spendings to low budget products to achieve good sound, people who know how to talk well and have a good education get paid well).

Wait until you are as old as I am and then come back to me. I am an insurance liability due to health and age. That means no one wants to hire me.

Frankly, your tone is rather insulting also.

If you read the thread you would know that I have chosen to have a life rather than spend my life chasing lucre.

"You don't see no hearses with luggage racks" -Don Henley

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Wait on top of that, did I mention that the fact that you were a marine when you were 19 kinda puts you down? I am sure it takes plenty of intelligence to work hard to become strong, and learn to use a gun to shoot accurately, and most importantly to obey orders. Yes thats an offense, I feel like you deserve one because you feel that you are not offensive if you are not calling anyone a jackass.

I don't see your point.

Support the troops, eh?

As I already mentioned, I have received several PM's saying they agree with me and also several posts on this thread in which people have said they do not see what everyone is getting so incensed about.

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Oh, and here is another one, even though I am not allowed to do insults here, I think its worth it to because I have good basis for mine. If you would like a tug of war as to what we listen to when we try different amplifiers, I'll tell you. Because there are things going on above 8 khz that we CAN hear (maybe not you, eh eh?), that vary plenty because all reactive loads become less predictable at high frequencies, due to parasite capacitances and inductances. Our ears are also less predictable in that range because alot of harmonics in the ears are really strange in their behavior at high frequencies, you know, the treble reverb is far more audible in a grand hall? Well, ears are a very tiny hall where treble will have reverb effects. There is plenty at work here that you do not seem to like to account for, instead bringing everything down to a simple matter of specs. Can you neatly in one sentence state the conclusion of your first post, and now add a few sentences as to where did any of us here ever worry about THD? I don't remember any but those mentioning few amplifiers with more than 1% THD (which are wickedly nice sounding by the way). Cheers, I highly recommend that communications book.

I don't claim to be any great mathematician but, despite all the histrionics, I am the only one on the thread that has posted any mathematics at all.

For PCM encoding, one bit = 6 dB

For a 24 bit DAC 6*24 =144 dB dynamic range, well beyond the point of pain.

The Nyquist limit for a 96 kHz DAC is 48 kHz.

Limit of human frequency response = 22 kHz.

The facts are pretty clear.

The great majority of amps these days have a frequency response of less than 20 Hz to well over 20 kHz.

How high are these harmonics of which you speak?

Do you know why one becomes dizzy when sufficiently intoxicated?

Because the cochlea is the body's poison detector. Consume poison, the cochlea reacts by making you dizzy so you will regurgitate the poison.

Go ahead, Google it. I learned it on the evolutionary psychology mailing list which I have been reading for years.

I know a little of physiology and psychoacoustics, enough to know that the shoulders play a significant role in the localization of sounds over one's head.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

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Originally Posted by plywood99 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Note your use of the phrase, " most golden eared audiophile." It practically drips pompous, condescending overtones. Allow me to interpret one of your quoted sentences, "Strangely enough that is the same ratio by which these HeadFi fools heard distortion in the test to which I linked above." You have continued to imply such thoughts throughout this thread. Maybe as Malos was saying you simply do not know how to communicate with people... Ply Lol, forgot about the last bold sentence. You,re intention, from the start, was to start controversy, not to have a lviely discussion...

Umm.. you missed the point in the thread where I mentioned that I was one of the more golden eared audiophiles to take the test.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

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Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been reading and following this thread, and haven't wanted to contribute to it primarily because I didn't want to extend it's life, but I wonder if the "tendency" you reference is by design. No offense, but quite a few of your threads/posts seem designed to start an argument or provoke people. Not that we don't all tend to do that from to time as we discuss this hobby, but it is typcially by accident, yet one gets the sense that your primary purpose on this forum is to provoke an acrimonious debate.

I am not the only one arguing here, those who oppose my views are also arguing, far more rudely than myself.

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Indeed, just look at the comment regarding the Head-Fi greeting: "Welcome to Head-Fi. Sorry about your wallet." That is a comment frequently offered in the spirit of friendship to welcome new people to the forum, and it is fairly benign. Yet you find it "distasteful" and "offputting." (Even worse perhaps, you feel compelled to express your opinion that it is "distasteful" and "offputting" when you could keep that to yourself and not say something that obviously might antagonize some people.) You seem to want to find fault in a lot of places and to provoke on a lot of issues, and your threads also tend to have an undercurrent of "I'm smarter than everyone else and am here to educate others and save the fools from themselves." And this thread is not the only thread that is an example of that.

It did put me off, I was just stating my reaction. For reasons beyond my control, my wallet is pretty flat right now.

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Maybe you should re-evaluate what your purpose is (or should be) in terms of your participation in this community.

I'm trying to inject a little science and logic in what seems to me to be a very unscientific and illogical discussion.

Do you see that as a bad thing?

 

[TheVinylRipper]

I don't expect to convince anyone arguing with me here that I am correct.

However, given that this thread has over 2,000 hits now, I know that there are a lot of lurkers reading.

In most *forums* the lurker to poster ratio runs about 9:1, the lurkers are the ones that I post for and they see the disrespect with which I am being treated simply due to going against the herd here.

You flinging insults and making ugly remarks about my genetic suitability might want to consider how you are coming across to the lurkers.

 

[PhilS]

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Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not the only one arguing here, those who oppose my views are also arguing, far more rudely than myself. It did put me off, I was just stating my reaction. For reasons beyond my control, my wallet is pretty flat right now. I'm trying to inject a little science and logic in what seems to me to be a very unscientific and illogical discussion. Do you see that as a bad thing?

You more or less prove my point and the points of others who have some problems with the manner in which you say things. In particular, your reaction is more or less to ignore my specific comments with a response that essentially says, "There's nothing wrong or inappropriate with anything I've said or the manner in which I've said it."

My friend, if you seem to have difficulties with people everywhere you go on the internet, and people routinely tend to get anatagonized by what you say or how you say it, don't you think maybe the problem is you? Just check the link on the "Find more posts by TheVinylRipper" and consider the tenor of most of those posts. They portray a person intending to provoke others and to draw attention to themselves.

In any event, I do not wish to get into a fight with you. I was trying to make a helpful suggestion. I suspect (and hope) that eventually you will retire from our company, as others or your ilk have done previously after stirring things up for a few days.

 

[plywood99]

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Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Umm.. you missed the point in the thread where I mentioned that I was one of the more golden eared audiophiles to take the test.

Nope, point was not missed at all. As I said earlier you have honed this skill to a fine edge. And, frankly, you're inability to "see" yourself is amazing...


Ply

 

[MaloS]

I don't know what to say to you man... Here is a fact, I don't know what it means to you, but they say older folks are less capable of learning and changing. Even if I tell you what is wrong (which I did, and you ignored, just took it as an insult before I got offensive), it would mean nothing. I trust that the lurkers understand that the points made here by the OP have not much to do with the hobby here without more extensive conclusions and reasons brought to the table, and the communication problems here have nothing to do with everyone being an *******.

I tried sir to be honest, direct, truthful. You sir, did not try to understand what some of us here said. I leave the case alone...it was a good idea for discussion, and it is sad that it was not developed neatly (lets not point fingers as to why).

I really really recommend that communications book

.

 

[Torula Yeast]

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However, given that this thread has over 2,000 hits now, I know that there are a lot of lurkers reading.

Why does this phrase remind me of how people will also come out of their houses when there's a fire in the neighborhood?

Not pointing this comment at anyone in particular. Just sayin'...

OK, I'm going back to my neutral corner, now.

 

[plywood99]

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Originally Posted by TheVinylRipper /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't expect to convince anyone arguing with me here that I am correct. However, given that this thread has over 2,000 hits now, I know that there are a lot of lurkers reading. In most *forums* the lurker to poster ratio runs about 9:1, the lurkers are the ones that I post for and they see the disrespect with which I am being treated simply due to going against the herd here. You flinging insults and making ugly remarks about my genetic suitability might want to consider how you are coming across to the lurkers.

LOL! Man you are a classic, TVR. A classic indeed...

 

[TheVinylRipper]

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Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif You more or less prove my point and the points of others who have some problems with the manner in which you say things. In particular, your reaction is more or less to ignore my specific comments with a response that essentially says, "There's nothing wrong or inappropriate with anything I've said or the manner in which I've said it."

And you have ignored my specific questions and comments.

You asked me to sum up my points succinctly, I did so and yet you do not respond.

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My friend, if you seem to have difficulties with people everywhere you go on the internet, and people routinely tend to get anatagonized by what you say or how you say it, don't you think maybe the problem is you? Just check the link on the "Find more posts by TheVinylRipper" and consider the tenor of most of those posts. They portray a person intending to provoke others and to draw attention to themselves.

I guess you overlooked all the posts where I try to give friendly advise to those asking for it.

Treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect. Disrespect me and I will become coldly formal and try to rip your metaphorical heart out.

Treat me as a friend and I will be a good friend, treat me as an enemy and I will be your enemy.

"Friends come and go, but enemies accumulate" -Robert A Heinlein

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In any event, I do not wish to get into a fight with you. I was trying to make a helpful suggestion. I suspect (and hope) that eventually you will retire from our company, as others or your ilk have done previously after stirring things up for a few days.

Maybe so, maybe not.

We shall see..

 

[TempestX]

You know, I have read every post in this thread, and I have been reading here for a very long time before I ever joined. To be honest, the OP brings valid points and has constantly had rude remarks thrown at him. Yes his posting style and ideas are different than most, that is what makes us unique. Others opinions are valid as well within this thread.

However, I have not seen him personally or directly say nasty things about people (such as pompous arse or the like). I am more shocked that even the Moderator (yes I said it) has only looked at the OP and has not responded or said anything to the ones dishing out the personal attacks discribed above.

This is just my opinion just as others have their opinion. I do not think this thread should be locked, as there is a lot of insightful information contained within. If by my opinion I get banned for not personally attacking a single person in this thread, then so be it. "Let it be written, Let it be done" These are just my observations.

 

[TempestX]

Delete double posting...

 

[b0dhi]

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Originally Posted by TempestX /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know, I have read every post in this thread, and I have been reading here for a very long time before I ever joined. To be honest, the OP brings valid points and has constantly had rude remarks thrown at him. Yes his posting style and ideas are different than most, that is what makes us unique. Others opinions are valid as well within this thread. However, I have not seen him personally or directly say nasty things about people (such as pompous arse or the like). I am more shocked that even the Moderator (yes I said it) has only looked at the OP and has not responded or said anything to the ones dishing out the personal attacks discribed above. This is just my opinion just as others have their opinion. I do not think this thread should be locked, as there is a lot of insightful information contained within. If by my opinion I get banned for not personally attacking a single person in this thread, then so be it. "Let it be written, Let it be done" These are just my observations.

I agree that the original post was a valid point. It was flamebait, but it was valid. Whether he has or hasn't made direct personal attacks is debatable, but what I think most people here have a problem with is that he's stating his opinion then - intentionally or not - misunderstanding, ignoring, misrepresenting and generally being disrespectful towards the calm, tactful responses of many people. Not all the responses have been polite, but almost all of them start off being polite until the Troll does his magic. Calling someone a name isn't the only way to piss someone off, and this Troll has perfected that art it seems.

 

[TheVinylRipper]

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Originally Posted by TempestX /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know, I have read every post in this thread, and I have been reading here for a very long time before I ever joined. To be honest, the OP brings valid points and has constantly had rude remarks thrown at him. Yes his posting style and ideas are different than most, that is what makes us unique. Others opinions are valid as well within this thread.

Thank you for your support..

As I said, I mostly post for the lurkers, I think you have proven my point.