[pne]

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Originally Posted by Azure What I'm saying is that their sexual preference cannot be regarded as any more horrible than "normal" heterosexual/homosexual preferences.

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Originally Posted by VR6ofpain It sure as hell can, and it is.

I don't blame them. Take a look at our worst enemy again, the media. Youth is portrayed as beauty time and time again. You have models and pop icons that have perfect skin, slim bodies, innocence. Does noone else seem to find it disturbing that a 40 year old guy can be looking at pornographic material involving 18 year old girls, and that is perfectly legal and commonplace, but if he so dares to venture into the 17yr old catagory this is sickening, against the law, immoral, etc? There is no OK switch flipped when someone turns 18. There needs to be some serious ammendments to the whole consent thing that is going around. Simply put, you can't just deem it legal once a person passes a certain age! Think of how silly this would be if someone was treated normally up to the age of 64, then at 65 BAM suddenly everythings different because they are a senior. Sorry gramps, you can't date under the age of 64 anymore, its statuatory rape!


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Originally Posted by Azure Hmm...that's interesting. So, even if there was direct video footage showing the teen raping the adult, the court would still hold the adult accountable due to the whole power situation and how those under 18 cannot be regarded as mature enough to be responsible for their actions? Or are you talking about something else?

sadly you're probably right, with the state of courts today and this so and so complete innocence of the youth, they can't be held accountable for anything attitude. You know what would seal the case? A teenage girl raping and adult male. You can bet that she's not going to go to jail, and you can bet that people will be saying he brainwashed her into doing it too.

When I was a child, like 7-8 years old, my mother would always warn me about commiting crimes, and how criminals go to jail for life. In a related life lesson she taught me to run away from anyone trying to hurt me. I asked, well who's gonna punish the guy trying to hurt me? She said, don't worry, the cops will get him and throw him in jail! I asked, what if instead of running away from him, I stuck a knife in his stomach and killed him? Well son thats different. Why? I asked, would I go to jail for that? She had to think for a moment, but her answer was no, they wouldn't put a kid in jail. So I asked her, you're saying if an adult attacks me he goes to jail, but if I go and kill another adult I won't?

 

[Azure]

pne - I believe you get more experience and mature more the older you get. I know that it might not make sense, but I can see how older folks can have better insights on certain matters because of their experiences and how long they've been on this world (They can look at matters from a more matured point of view and have better forms of reasoning). I'm curious as to how less radical my mind will be when I hit ~40-50

 

[pne]

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Originally Posted by plainsong Agreed. It's not about sex, it's about power. No way in hell is it a sexual preference, unless you read the brochures from the People for Ethical Treatment of Animals... (say it with me) or NAMBLA.

have psychological tests proven this? Why do they prey on children, instead of the eldery or the disabled if power is their high?

Azure-I feel like I've matured a great deal from when I was 15, but looking back I'd like to think that I could have made a similarly good judgement call or decision as I would now. Of course, there is no real way to argue this to an adult other than somehow aging 10 years and then giving them your opinon on the matter.


On a side note, I realize my posts may sound a bit heated and confrontational but this is simply a subject I feel very strongly about. I apologize if anyone takes my opinions in offence, I'm merely putting on the debating gloves or so to speak.

 

[brn80]

Quite an interesting topic.. although most of the stuff talked about here probably pertains to the US, thought this would be an interesting read; ages of consent around the world

 

[Azure]

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Originally Posted by pne Azure-I feel like I've matured a great deal from when I was 15, but looking back I'd like to think that I could have made a similarly good judgement call or decision as I would now. Of course, there is no real way to argue this to an adult other than somehow aging 10 years and then giving them your opinon on the matter.

I don't think we're the target base for this kind of situation. We (Us Head-Fi users), I believe, are very differerent from the vicitms of these internet predators, so to us we're easily able to realize (Both now and when we were ~13-15) how stupid it would be to consent to something like this. But we don't exactly resemble the type of people that are victims of these crimes (I get the idea of a fairly unintelligent, promiscuous, horny MySpace crazed teen girl that wants to rebel against her parents; I'm not sure how many Head-Fiers here fit that bill, but I'd venture to guess not many...).

 

[mr_baseball_08]

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Originally Posted by Azure By "natural" I mean in their state of mind. It's just common sense that pedophilia would be a natural turn on to them as are women to straight men, men to straight women, men to gay men, etc. The reason why these things happen is because the teens are willingly giving out information and want to do it. The predators are a problem, but the teens are a bigger problem. If you could educate these teens, then these occurrences would HARDLY occur at all (if at all). If a bunch of kids are going out and buying, say, crack or something from drug dealers and are ruining their lives and killing themselves...what are you going to do? Go after drug dealers, or try to educate these stupid kids? Actually, you should do both, but what I'm sayins is that you should place more emphasis (more emphasis than is being placed now) on the latter.

Wow, really...?? You have a warped way of thinking, IMO..

As many people have pointed out already, teens and pre-teens don't make the right decision 95% of the time. And you can't teach someone to make the right decision. There's not a Decision 101 class when you go to high school. Decision making abilities come with age and experience. At between the ages of 8 and 18, you don't have much of either (age and experience).

I doubt your argument for pedophiles thinking they are normal can really hold up. If they honestly thought they normal they wouldn't creep around on the internet trying to pick up kids in chat rooms. If they were normal as you say, they'd go out in the public and try to pick up children in public, right? Because that's the normal thing to do.

IMO, these people aren't normal at all, and deep down I'd be willing to bet 98% of them know what they're doing isn't right. They either think they aren't strong enough to fix themselves or don't care anything about fixing themselves. Which in either case, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[breez]

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Originally Posted by mr_baseball_08 I doubt your argument for pedophiles thinking they are normal can really hold up. If they honestly thought they normal they wouldn't creep around on the internet trying to pick up kids in chat rooms. If they were normal as you say, they'd go out in the public and try to pick up children in public, right? Because that's the normal thing to do. IMO, these people aren't normal at all, and deep down I'd be willing to bet 98% of them know what they're doing isn't right. They either think they aren't strong enough to fix themselves or don't care anything about fixing themselves. Which in either case, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I think what Azure is getting at is that for pedophiles being sexually attracted to children is natural for them. They may and probably do acknowledge that it isn't normal or socially acceptable at all.

But how would they go about fixing themselves? If we work under the assumption that pedophilia is a sexual preference it is just like thinking homosexuals could 'fix themselves'. You can't just push a button and change sexual preference.

This is not a justification of pedophile activity. If such an individual acts on their desires they should be taken out of the society.

 

[swt61]

I can't get over some of the attitudes on here! Azure I can tell you exactly when your mind will change on this subject, the day you welcome your child into the world. To disregard the adults responsibility because they are pedophiles and can't help it is absurd. To think that stopping a teen from giving out personal info will stop pedophilia is equally absurd. The pedophile is just taking the easiest way to the kid. Do you really believe that they'll give up if it becomes more challenging. What do you think they did before the internet? Parks and playgrounds might not be the hunting grounds anymore, but they're still out they're stalking kids in arcades and anywhere else they can find them. And even if all they wanted was sex, and they'd never physically harm the child, it's still emotionally devastating for so many of the victems. But all pedophiles aren't so timid! I used to work for DHL and delivered to the Polly Klaas foundation in Petaluma, CA daily. I was there when they found Richard Allen Davis, and a more evil person never existed.
You're 17 and a very bright young man, that's easy to see, but you need to realise that the Black and White world they teach in elementary and secondary schools does not exist. It's all shades of gray, and sometimes laws need to be set to protect society even when an act may appear at first glance relatively harmless.
I brought up Michael Jackson as a joke earlier, but I think he's a good case in point. So many people can't believe he could ever be guilty of molesting children, and those people are just as dangerous as he is. Wise up! I fully believe he and the rest of his siblings were molested by their father Joe, just like Rebbie announced so many years ago. They read like poster children for sexual abuse. And while my heart bleeds for Michael as a young victim, I have zero tollerance for his behavior as an adult. The past recipients know better than anyone the hell they're inflicting on their victims.
I won't even go into statutory rape with you, I'll let you read up on that yourself, but it's not by any stretch of the imagination a frivolous law.
I hope you don't consider this some kind of personal assault on your character. I only debate this with you because I do find you to be a very intelligent young man, and I'm trying to get you to understand the perspective of an older if not necessarily wiser adult.

 

[VR6ofpain]

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Originally Posted by breez I think what Azure is getting at is that for pedophiles being sexually attracted to children is natural for them. They may and probably do acknowledge that it isn't normal or socially acceptable at all. But how would they go about fixing themselves? If we work under the assumption that pedophilia is a sexual preference it is just like thinking homosexuals could 'fix themselves'. You can't just push a button and change sexual preference. This is not a justification of pedophile activity. If such an individual acts on their desires they should be taken out of the society.

Again this is irrelavant. The problem here IS the pedophile. Azure and his statement about the teens being "the bigger problem" is wrong, naive, and just plain ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by swt61 To disregard the adults responsibility because they are pedophiles and can't help it is absurd. To think that stopping a teen from giving out personal info will stop pedophilia is equally absurd. The pedophile is just taking the easiest way to the kid. Do you really believe that they'll give up if it becomes more challenging. What do you think they did before the internet? Parks and playgrounds might not be the hunting grounds anymore, but they're still out they're stalking kids in arcades and anywhere else they can find them.

Exactly!

 

[JahJahBinks]

I agree

 

[marvin]

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Originally Posted by pne I don't blame them. Take a look at our worst enemy again, the media. Youth is portrayed as beauty time and time again. You have models and pop icons that have perfect skin, slim bodies, innocence.

Hardly the media's fault. Preference for youthful looks have been ingrained into human genetics and psychology for thousands of years. Why else would women spend a godforsakenly high amount of money on trying to look younger and why else would the "barely legal" pornography market be so large?

And really, as recently as the middle ages, women married as early as 12, with the majority being married by 19. The men they married were much older, usually around late 20's, early 30's. We can argue that's it's unnatural all that we want, but clearly, it was natural back then.

Not that any of this excuses pedophiles now. There's more to being a human adult than genetic impulses.

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Originally Posted by mr_baseball_08 I doubt your argument for pedophiles thinking they are normal can really hold up. If they honestly thought they normal they wouldn't creep around on the internet trying to pick up kids in chat rooms. If they were normal as you say, they'd go out in the public and try to pick up children in public, right? Because that's the normal thing to do.

Oh, they can think they're perfectly normal and not go around picking up children in public. The increased odds of a long stay in jail does have that effect on people. They did do the playground stalking not too long ago when the safer option of using the internet did not exist.

 

[swt61]

I have no doubt that our society focuses on youth. I myself have looked at lots of 17- 19 y.o. girls at times with desire in my thoughts. That's perfectly natural. But I don't act on those impulses at all. I am old enough to rationalize what a mistake that would be. Both for them and myself. However anyone having carnal desires for prepubescent children is damned unnatural IMO. What can be considered sexual about a child? It doesn't matter what was considered normal in the past. Hell Roman soldiers bedded young boys, would you suggest that we consider that acceptable behavior? Using your rational slavery would be an acceptable practice today. The past is the past. The analogy to homosexuals is equally as flawed! Homosexuals are consenting adults that are not causing physical or emotional harm to children. I do not consider homosexuality an abhorant behavior. And for the record most pedophiles whether they prefer boys or girls classify themselves as heterosexual. I have no doubt that pedophelia might be extremely difficult or impossible to cure, but that does not mean that we should in any way lesson the punishment for acting on those impulses.
The point is I don't care if the teens are dancing around naked begging for these guys to have sex with them, it's criminal period!

 

[sisenor]

Will someone respond to my post (#35)? I think I brought up a good point. I'm basically saying the show was nothing but sensationalism if they chose not to address women pedophiles also.

I would argue that little boys have quite a lot to contend with as far as sexual abuse and I think they're less able to deal with it than little girls. I'm not minimizing what females deal with, but the other side of the coin needs to be looked at (I'm not talking about abuse from an older male like the whole priest-altar boy thing). Also, while I surely don't think Western psychology is the end all, be all, the DSM-IV says that sexual attraction to young boys is harder to get over than sexual attraction to little girls.

 

[marvin]

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Originally Posted by swt61 I have no doubt that our society focuses on youth. I myself have looked at lots of 17- 19 y.o. girls at times with desire in my thoughts. That's perfectly natural. But I don't act on those impulses at all. I am old enough to rationalize what a mistake that would be. Both for them and myself. However anyone having carnal desires for prepubescent children is damned unnatural IMO. What can be considered sexual about a child? It doesn't matter what was considered normal in the past. Hell Roman soldiers bedded young boys, would you suggest that we consider that acceptable behavior?

We both agree that sex with a minor is unacceptable behavior and should be criminalized due to the psychological impact on the minor affected affected.

I was just noting that sexual attraction to post pubescent children is hardly unnatural; and even if though it is natural, it does not mean that it is acceptable.

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Will someone respond to my post (#35)? I think I brought up a good point. I'm basically saying the show was nothing but sensationalism if they chose not to address women pedophiles also.

America, sensibly, does not criminalize thought crimes. As female pedophiles do not act on their desire nearly as often as male pedophiles do, ignoring female pedophiles in this show is acceptable. Also, the method that these predators use, internet baiting of teenaged girls, is rarely used by female pedophiles.

 

[swt61]

I agree with everything you just said Marvin.

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Originally Posted by sisenor Will someone respond to my post (#35)? I think I brought up a good point.

If you're asking is there a double standard in this country, yes I think there is. However I agree with Marvin that these are usually encounters of circumstance, and not premiditated preditory acts. Never the less they are still every bit as criminal.

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Originally Posted by Azure I'd like to meet a female pedophile (provided she's attractive).

That sounds suspiciously like the acts of baiting you just spent several posts criticizing.