[Lumithium]

It is all about compromise. You want razer sharp mids? You need to keep those low mids down and bass in control. You want large space feeling? You need to compromise from intimacy and mids clearness. Sometimes even things that are not really favorable, like in cup echo, might give you the feeling of a large space, which are most probably shot down by the AMTS before it reaches your ears. It is all about finding the right balance.

Bringing the discussion back to Expanse, it can easily (just like Stealth, but even better) place something far outside your intimate stage "if the mix calls for it", but spreading it all out is not what it is aiming for and that is OK. I like that sometimes with Susvara, but then I miss the nicer mids and better controlled treble.

In the end all is good.

Are you still going to keep the Susvara now that you have the Expanse?

I haven't tried the Expanse yet, but I am wondering if it will complement the Susvara.

 

[DarginMahkum]

Are you still going to keep the Susvara now that you have the Expanse?

I haven't tried the Expanse yet, but I am wondering if it will complement the Susvara.

I haven't decided yet, will soon decide. Expanse is more intimate, has less shiny treble, closer and clearer mids (vocals) and more bass. If that is what you like, it is for sure a great alternative. Susvara is one of the most balanced sounds out there and Expanse further improves that for me. But if you are used to that spread out sound with distant center image, it might sound a bit too close, but Expanse center image sounds more right to me. Keep in mind that I listened to Stealth for a year and I am very used to that signature.

 

[ra990]

I haven't decided yet, will soon decide. Expanse is more intimate, has less shiny treble, closer and clearer mids (vocals) and more bass. If that is what you like, it is for sure a great alternative. Susvara is one of the most balanced sounds out there and Expanse further improves that for me. But if you are used to that spread out sound with distant center image, it might sound a bit too close, but Expanse center image sounds more right to me. Keep in mind that I listened to Stealth for a year and I am very used to that signature.

I had the Stealth for a long while, over which it became one of my favorites. I never had an issue with the stage or the center image on that. It naturally put the center just a bit more forward than where the Expanse does. With stock expanse, the center is right in the middle of my head, and just from preference over time, I prefer my center to be a bit more forward, somewhere between the center of my head and my eyes. It seems like a small difference, but I found it makes a big difference to me.

Expecting to hear the center a bit more in front of me comes from listening to loudspeakers. Headphones can beam the center right in the middle of your head, but I'm just not used to that positioning.

 

[DarginMahkum]

Yeah we should just keep talking about Bass, in that regard the Expanse deserves a lot of praise

Mine are luckily only interested in thin IEM cables. Ordered a full size Silvergarde S4 for my IEMs, now everything Is safe

I don't know if you like the music type but I think every bass head needs to hear this album on Expanse:

 

[dmagnan]

I do not understand why people continue to confuse the ability to play loud enough with sounding as good as it can sound...a 20k car can go 120 mph just as a 100k sports car can but I do not think too many people would argue they perform the same..I have plenty of amos that can reach ear splitting levels but arent good amps and do not allow the HP to perform to its capability...

Not that I am a meter-reader engineer type denying all the subtle but real and important audio differences going with different amplifiers, preamps, and other components, but I sure would like to have at least some idea of what if any measurable (or even non-measurable) performance differences would correspond to the sonic superiority of a 6w into 32 ohm amp versus a 2 watt into 32 ohm amplifier at some loudness level fully within the 2w amplifier's capabilities. The proviso being that both amps have pretty much the same specifications except of course max power, and even more importantly, the same quality of parts and the same basic circuit topology, i.e. transistors vs. tubes. If they have the same specifications except for max power output, and the same parts quality and same circuit type, then it can't seem to be anything I can identify, neither distortion, bandwidth, slew rate, or whatever. A mystery.

In the case of the ordinary Chevy versus the Corvette (both of which can reach 120 mph), there are obvious differences in max acceleration, deceleration, and minimum time to 120 mph, max G turn capability, other handling characteristics, etc., all of which are measurable.

 

[BassicScience]

Not that I am a meter-reader engineer type denying all the subtle but real and important audio differences going with different amplifiers, preamps, and other components, but I sure would like to have at least some idea of what if any measurable (or even non-measurable) performance differences would correspond to the sonic superiority of a 6w into 32 ohm amp versus a 2 watt into 32 ohm amplifier at some loudness level fully within the 2w amplifier's capabilities. The proviso being that both amps have pretty much the same specifications except of course max power, and even more importantly, the same quality of parts and the same basic circuit topology, i.e. transistors vs. tubes. If they have the same specifications except for max power output, and the same parts quality and same circuit type, then it can't seem to be anything I can identify, neither distortion, bandwidth, slew rate, or whatever. A mystery.

In the case of the ordinary Chevy versus the Corvette (both of which can reach 120 mph), there are obvious differences in max acceleration, deceleration, and minimum time to 120 mph, turn capability, other handling characteristics, etc., all of which are measurable.

Any amplifier's distortion level rises as it approaches its rated power output. Thus, the amp operating closer to its rated power will indeed be generating higher measured THD. Whether or not you'll hear it is another question. As many people have pointed out, just using a more powerful amp doesn't guarantee "sonic superiority", which is a nebulous concept in the subjective sense anyway. For inefficient headphones (and speakers), my empirical experience has been that it's almost always best to err on the side of more power/headroom. Clearly, others may hear things differently.

 

[iamoneagain]

I don't know if you like the music type but I think every bass head needs to hear this album on Expanse:

Sounds great. Lots of bass and punchy sound. Not missing my Utopia’s at all and this would also be something they excelled in. The difference here is the Expanse pulls in more resolution in the mids and highs.

And not sure about the power discussions. My Naim HE is rated 1.5W @ 16 ohms and has more than enough power and never clips. But I’m not technical enough to understand any of this.

 

[ThanatosVI]

I don't know if you like the music type but I think every bass head needs to hear this album on Expanse:

Usually not my Genre, but the bass lines where quite enjoyable

 

[xmr0613]

Any amplifier's distortion level rises as it approaches its rated power output. Thus, the amp operating closer to its rated power will indeed be generating higher measured THD. Whether or not you'll hear it is another question. As many people have pointed out, just using a more powerful amp doesn't guarantee "sonic superiority", which is a nebulous concept in the subjective sense anyway. For inefficient headphones (and speakers), my empirical experience has been that it's almost always best to err on the side of more power/headroom. Clearly, others may hear things differently.

Here is when I get confused. If the amp is Class A, doesn't mean it won't have this problem? My understanding is that Class A amps are always operating at maximum power and the volume knob is simply attenuating the sound, so increasing the volume shouldn't cause any distortion whatsoever, if anything it could only improve the distortion assuming the attenuator would introduce more noise. This would apply to amps like enleum 23r, gsx mk2 and singxer sa-1. Is that not true?

 

[BassicScience]

Here is when I get confused. If the amp is Class A, doesn't mean it won't have this problem? My understanding is that Class A amps are always operating at maximum power and the volume knob is simply attenuating the sound, so increasing the volume shouldn't cause any distortion whatsoever, if anything it could only improve the distortion assuming the attenuator would introduce more noise. This would apply to amps like enleum 23r, gsx mk2 and singxer sa-1. Is that not true?

Class A simply means that the amplifier's active devices (tubes, transistors) never shut off, which means such amps dissipate significant power at quiescence (no signal). They are not always operating at maximum power, and distortion does increase at higher volumes. Feedback circuitry has a large influence on any amplifier's distortion profile, regardless of its operational class.

EDIT: If the amp has a volume knob, then it's an integrated amp. The volume knob may attenuate the input signal on its way to the power amp section, but turning up the volume attenuates it less, which is equivalent to pre-amplifying it from the power amp section's perspective. Also, while signal-to-noise typically improves at higher input signal levels, noise is not synonymous with distortion, which is generated within the amplifier circuit.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

So upon further listening, the Expanse does not have as wide of a stage as the Atrium. It sounds wide to me but closer and more immediate. It sounds more detailed most of the time, but on some tracks I can hear more air in the upper mids and treble on the Atrium. What surprised me today was how detailed the bass and lower mids are on the Expanse. I always thought the Atrium was detailed there, but in quick switching back and forth, the bass on the Expanse is just so punchy, distinct, and clean. It is some high quality and detailed bass, as ZMF is no slouch!

I understand these impressions will probably change as they break in more, but I like to just opine along the way. It’s a journey, not a destination!

 

[jlbrach]

Not that I am a meter-reader engineer type denying all the subtle but real and important audio differences going with different amplifiers, preamps, and other components, but I sure would like to have at least some idea of what if any measurable (or even non-measurable) performance differences would correspond to the sonic superiority of a 6w into 32 ohm amp versus a 2 watt into 32 ohm amplifier at some loudness level fully within the 2w amplifier's capabilities. The proviso being that both amps have pretty much the same specifications except of course max power, and even more importantly, the same quality of parts and the same basic circuit topology, i.e. transistors vs. tubes. If they have the same specifications except for max power output, and the same parts quality and same circuit type, then it can't seem to be anything I can identify, neither distortion, bandwidth, slew rate, or whatever. A mystery.

In the case of the ordinary Chevy versus the Corvette (both of which can reach 120 mph), there are obvious differences in max acceleration, deceleration, and minimum time to 120 mph, max G turn capability, other handling characteristics, etc., all of which are measurable.

it is not about simply power...my formula s/powerman combo puts out 2.3 watts into my abyss TC while the topping A90 puts out more I think yet the formula s combo is head and shoulders better...not even close...I have both...my CFA3 has far more power than my formula s combo and it is better and cost me half as much....it is not straight forward or simple

 

[spookyblack]

Ok, lots of squabbling about soundstage in regards to the Expanse, but what about imaging? I enjoy a decent amount of wideness but I’m way more concerned about imaging and separation. Owners of the expanse, what are your thoughts?

 

[theveterans]

Ok, lots of squabbling about soundstage in regards to the Expanse, but what about imaging? I enjoy a decent amount of wideness but I’m way more concerned about imaging and separation. Owners of the expanse, what are your thoughts?

Imaging is 100% TOTL level. Pin point precision just like the Stealth

 

[Currawong]

The best way to respond to crazy posts is to not respond at all. Just a thought.

So they need a lot of power. Do you mean absolute power, 4 watts or more, or is it that you can't get enough voltage gain to play as loud as you want, without 4 watts, with your particular headphone amp (the Singxer SA-1)? Theoretically, 2-3 watts should be enough for ear-bleeding levels, based only on the sensitivity of the Expanse, except for voltage gain issues. Or is it that for good quality sound the Expanse just needs a very hefty output stage with very low output impedance because of diaphragm control issues?

Here is when I get confused. If the amp is Class A, doesn't mean it won't have this problem? My understanding is that Class A amps are always operating at maximum power and the volume knob is simply attenuating the sound, so increasing the volume shouldn't cause any distortion whatsoever, if anything it could only improve the distortion assuming the attenuator would introduce more noise. This would apply to amps like enleum 23r, gsx mk2 and singxer sa-1. Is that not true?

This is tricky, because amplifying a constantly varying signal is not the same as doing so with a constant one. When we do calculations, we are doing so with static numbers, and assuming the latter.

The reason we tend to go for amps with excessive power output is that they are most likely to be operating at their most linear in the power ranges required for the headphones we use. Most headphone amps are Class AB, and will only operate in Class A up to a few hundred mW, before sliding into Class AB.
Presently, $500-700 amps are being hyped due to low THD. These amps use switching power supplies, and have quite excessive power output. It's my speculation that the high power output is for three reasons: 1. It looks impressive; 2. Higher power output means that with a full power signal, they'll get better SINAD (even though this has NOTHING to do with actual driving ability); and 3. Switching power supplies output high frequency noise that has to be filtered. Power filtering kills the dynamics of the amp, so having a larger than necessary power output probably compensates for this somewhat.

The most real-world example I have of this is the FiiO M11S and M11 Plus ESS. Both have the same power output specs, but the THX amp of the Plus ESS is clearly better at driving headphones (not that I'd suggest using <$1k daps for full-sized headphones). The M11S becomes "shouty" at louder volumes with the same music and headphones, whereas the Plus ESS does not.

I asked Mrspeakers (apparently a DCA spokesman)

His name is Dan. He apparently owns the company.

This is a new one on me that I am yet to come across. So I have an Expanse for demo, and am running it from a IFI Diablo on highest gain across the 6.35mm. At higher volumes the sound breaks momentarily on bass notes, is that what people describe as clipping? It happens also on normal gain, at higher volumes. If that is the case, then I will need to rule out the Diablo as a source for the Expanse, despite it being a pretty powerful amp in itself but it appears not to be able to drive the Expanse suitably which is a little disappointing.

This confirms what I experienced, and what L7 measured, that the official power output specs of the Diablo have been overstated by something like a factor of 10.

For those that want mooore portable power Q7 is coming out. It is good that they dropped the dual 9038PRO to one.

An M17 without the DAP. I hope that it has analog input as well, as in desktop mode the M17 is quite good.