Damping Mechanical Energy Distortion of STAX and other phones with SORBOTHANE and other materials.

[richard51]

how do you like the sound of the sr-x mkIII pro compared to the stax sr-5 ? i am curious of this vintage Stax now because of you Edstrelow ...

 

 

[edstrelow]

how do you like the sound of the sr-x mkIII pro compared to the stax sr-5 ? i am curious of this vintage Stax now because of you Edstrelow ...  

It is a bit hard to compare these because The SRX3 Pro will of course only run off my SRM 1Mk2 amp. The Sr5 will run off the same amp but performs better from its transformer. The two phones are about the same vintage and both seem to have a pretty flat frequency response. However the 3 seems a bit treblish. The 3 being a pro does have a bit more dynamics, but as I said the 5 is a great performer with no vices. One day I may see if I can mod it to be a high bias phone. Some say just put another spacer between the stators and the driver and a slight rewiring of the plug. Unfortunately I have more projects I would like to do than I have time.

For the near future I am laying in stocks a different types of sorbothane which I want to test on the 3, using an extra cap/cover which can be taken on and off quickly so as to compare different strategies and materials.

To return to your damping of equipment, I agree that this is often beneficial. For years I tried various sorbothane footers on amps and the like with modest improvements. However when after I realized that smaller pieces of self-stick worked well on headphones, I tried this on amps, cd players etc. and got notably better results.

Mostly we are damping vibrations from transformers and cd drives which presumably cause microphonics on other parts of the amp, cd player, etc. This seems to me to be notably different from damping headphones.

As you say, who would have thought of damping headphones? I had sheets of sorb around for about a decade and it never occured to me that it would be of any use there. I came upon the idea more by accident. There was just no discussion of the damping problem in this business although now we are starting to get some recognition from headphone makers.

 

[richard51]

It is a bit hard to compare these because The SRX3 Pro will of course only run off my SRM 1Mk2 amp. The Sr5 will run off the same amp but performs better from its transformer. The two phones are about the same vintage and both seem to have a pretty flat frequency response. However the 3 seems a bit treblish. The 3 being a pro does have a bit more dynamics, but as I said the 5 is a great performer with no vices. One day I may see if I can mod it to be a high bias phone. Some say just put another spacer between the stators and the driver and a slight rewiring of the plug. Unfortunately I have more projects I would like to do than I have time.

For the near future I am laying in stocks a different types of sorbothane which I want to test on the 3, using an extra cap/cover which can be taken on and off quickly so as to compare different strategies and materials.

To return to your damping of equipment, I agree that this is often beneficial. For years I tried various sorbothane footers on amps and the like with modest improvements. However when after I realized that smaller pieces of self-stick worked well on headphones, I tried this on amps, cd players etc. and got notably better results.

Mostly we are damping vibrations from transformers and cd drives which presumably cause microphonics on other parts of the amp, cd player, etc. This seems to me to be notably different from damping headphones.

As you say, who would have thought of damping headphones? I had sheets of sorb around for about a decade and it never occured to me that it would be of any use there. I came upon the idea more by accident. There was just no discussion of the damping problem in this business although now we are starting to get some recognition from headphone makers.

very interesting, it seems i must try it myself the sr-x....For me i dont see a big difference between damping headphones, dac, amp,energizer, etc ... It seems that the sorb act like his essence order him to act : suppressing destructive vibrations and manifestation of  indesirable resonance effect that interact all the way up the chain...electrical courant induce  mechanical oscillation and resonance that interact with the sound frequencies... 
 
Thank you for your time, and dedication....i am truly your debtor...and a Stax nut now...

 

[edstrelow]

My theory about why the sorbothane helps the SRD-6 needs a major revision. I had assumed  the problem was vibrations from a mains transformer.  However when I opened the unit I don't see any such transformer.  The mains cord goes to a circuit board not a transformer.  there are two transformers but they would be the voltage step-up transformers.  Now I don't have a circuit diagram for this unit and I doubt that I could fully figure its operation even if I had one.
 
The question is what is the source of the vibration which is being damped by the sorb?  I guess its possible that the circuit board is vibrating and creating microphonics. Or what else is going on?
 
The second picture shows the sorb added to the transformers.

 

 
I put some lumps of sorb on top of the step-up transformers and this seemed to make the sound sweeter and more detailed.  These do change somewhat several hours after application presumably because the glue (3m80) bonds better. 

 

[richard51]

very interesting indeed!... In my case experiment i put the sorb under the feet and apply pressure with the 2 bricks.... very different methods, same better results in the sound!....But i think it is better to stress and compress a little the sorbothane with a pressure for the optimal results, it is not possible in the headphone  except with clamps but on all the rest of the gear chain it is possible...
 
It is near 3 am here, i was  not sleeping , and i have the idea to put 6 pieces of sorb. under the plastic case of the  power strip Panamax PM8-AV, where all my audio gear are connected , with 2 bricks on top of it to apply the right pressure on the sorb piece... guess what?  Incredible more clearer sound across the spectrum, no more compression of the sound at all, perhaps one of the most evident and spectacular effect with this last experiment...For my ears the SR-5 is characterized now by a total  tonal equilibrium with a silky almost tubish sound in the highs and more clearer bass with no or little sub-bass but who cares, hence  absolutely  more refine sound than ever. I had paid  60 dollars and i doubt that there is better cans than that under one thousand dollars, compared to that my others phones are in the limbo of obsolete gear, i know that now with my ears and not only with your testimony...i was dreaming surely....
 
It is clear for me with that , the electrical interaction with the material component induce resonance effect  that go up the chain, blurring the imaging sound....Now ALL element of my gear chain are finally sorbothanized all the way down: to begins with the headphone, the dac, the amplifier, the energizer Stax, the woofer, and last but not least the power strip panamax.... the result are always more clearer sound and more opening of the soundstage and imaging .... I will listen more tomorrow.... Dear Edstrelow they are no doubt for me that sorbothane is one of the most spectacular refinement method for the  audio sound for almost no cost ...I dont know any other.... I must sleep now ,3h.30m .... thanks for all that , your eternal debtor ...

 
 
update : I am in the morning now, and i listen astonished to my music, and i recognize absolutely nothing.... It is a new world of sound with a perfect rendering of the instrumental timbre in a musical way, and not in little  bits of frequencies measured with apparatus, all is organically linked in the best imaging space i have ever heard ... If someone thinks it  is exagerated, that will not cost big money to put my claims in a coffin... Try it....

 

[richard51]

Life is full of surprizes!  It has been more than a week that i had not listen to my lambda nova basic, nor the he 400 and 2 days since i had open the speakers, because in sorbothanizing the amplifier , the dac , and the power strip, after the energizer, i had listen only to the stax SR-5 and the progress in clarity and imaging was very extraordinary... Guess what, this evening by curiosity i listen for the first time the Lambda nova basic  and the he 400, and the speakers for the first time in days after all this use of sorb in the amp, the dac, and power strip... The surprize was total, now i can say that all my gear sound so good than i cannot choose with the same exclusive evidence ... In final i prefer the Sr-5 (because the musical timbre are the most natural on it ) but it is no more so evident, even the speakers are better....The morality of this adventure is simple: the Sorbothane act his magic ALL the WAY up, power strip, dac, amplifier, energizer, headphone, at the end it is a matter of preference which i will listen but if i must choose only one this will be the SR-5 for sure... The sorbothane is magic ...

 

 

[nick n]

Much of the other tweaks and effects, other than in this main thread, are being played with in the Orthodynamic Roundup thread, as well as a few behind the scenes not posted and working within the PM system...
There's likely a lot more to follow should they feel the urge to share.
 
Notice the picture here, this is a very clear and extremely obviously improved sounding damping scheme since I have done it in the exact same headphone.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/111193/orthodynamic-roundup/24330#post_12297726
Bucketinabucket applied a couple more bits than me, but effects are likely very close.
He snuck that picture in there, not sure that he posted about it.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/111193/orthodynamic-roundup/24360#post_12338868
Current impressions however brief, PLUS soon to have a direct comparison between two identical orthos. One Sorb modded, one unsorbed and stock.
 
I know of many other ongoing mods and results yet to be posted.

 

[richard51]

  Much of the other tweaks and effects, other than in this main thread, are being played with in the Orthodynamic Roundup thread, as well as a few behind the scenes not posted and working within the PM system...
There's likely a lot more to follow should they feel the urge to share.
 
Notice the picture here, this is a very clear and extremely obviously improved sounding damping scheme since I have done it in the exact same headphone.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/111193/orthodynamic-roundup/24330#post_12297726
Bucketinabucket applied a couple more bits than me, but effects are likely very close.
He snuck that picture in there, not sure that he posted about it.
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/111193/orthodynamic-roundup/24360#post_12338868
Current impressions however brief, PLUS soon to have a direct comparison between two identical orthos. One Sorb modded, one unsorbed and stock.
 
I know of many other ongoing mods and results yet to be posted.

It is very important if possible  to centralize the  results... thanks to post for us all here...

 

[zolkis]

Thanks for figuring all these things out, putting a lot of effort into it, and sharing it for free.
As I am settled with my own 007 mods, I would like to give this one a try, eventually also including other damping materials (e.g. Deflex).
Trying to figure out what to do on the 007 Mk1, I have questions on post #20:
 

  Eureka! The 007A comes alive with the right damping.  While I first started to explore the use of sorbothane on Stax phones with the 007A, in the last few months  my 2 damped Lambdas, LNS and 404, have been getting more listening, along with the damped SRXIII pro.  So  I removed all my previous damping efforts on the 7 and started over. One of the reasons I suspect that the damped Lambdas sounded so good was that the sorbothane was placed right on the  baffles next to the drivers. I.e. you can't get it any closer to the drivers than that.  Unfortunately the 7 defeats you on that score, I just couldn't see where to put sorb next to the drivers unless I was willing to put it one the dust covers. So instead I put 1/8 inch sorb on the plate that holds the phones together, still pretty close to the drivers.
 
Edit Feb 20/15 - now using 1/4 in 30 duro sorbothane which seems better. 
(...)
Edit April 27, 2015 Following a tip from a seller of sorb that smaller pieces were more effective than large pieces, I cut the ring of 1/4 inch duro into 4 sections,
(...)
EDIT 5/28/2015  Cutting the ring into 8 segments was even better.  Even better dynamics and less bass boominess.   I think this is now the world's best headphone!
(...)
Now the sound was much better balanced.  However, still, it was arguably no better than the damped Lambda LNS .
I looked at the headband arcs again
(...)
Each damper consists of two rigid plastic sections about 3 inches  by 1 1/2 inches and each has 4 1/8 in sorb pads about 1 in square, 2 on the top and 2 on the bottom plastic sections.  They are placed on the inside and outside of the arc band and screwed together  with one screw and nut .  Another advantage of this system is that you can tweak the sound to some degree by tightening and loosening the screws. Generally if these are fairly loose you will get more bass, as you tighten them, the bass decreases and the treble comes up.  However I have not checked these effects over all ranges of tightness.  If you tighten them too much I suspect they don't do much other than add some mass to the phones.
(...)
The sound is now very, very nice. Great definition of all frequencies, individual voices and instruments tend to jump out at you and finally an 007 which sounds better than the damped Lambdas. 

 
The questions:
1. Do you have 1/4" or 1/8" sorb (8 pieces) on the 007 driver protection plate?
2. What is the width of a piece? Is the width optimized?
3. Do the pieces touch each other? On the picture they seem not to touch each other, but are very close.
 
Based on my experience with the 007, I could explain some of the effects you noticed without taking resonances in mind:
- elevating the ear pads changes frequency and time domain response
- cutting the sorb into 4, then 8 pieces created ports that loosened the bass
- when you tighten the screws on the headband damping and therefore slightly modifed the shape of them.
What I noticed was that all these factors, especially small headband modifications can alter the sound considerably. Which is great for tuning, but also exposes a lot of variables. 
So, to the last question:
4. I wonder if did you come across a methodology to make sure the mods alter the body vibrations, and not only the body itself? Do you have any heuristics for where to start from and which direction to move, how to change when you hear something? I mean, anything cues other than just experimentally EQ'ing the headphone (the way I started pad mods)?

 

[edstrelow]

Thanks for figuring all these things out, putting a lot of effort into it, and sharing it for free.
As I am settled with my own 007 mods, I would like to give this one a try, eventually also including other damping materials (e.g. Deflex).
Trying to figure out what to do on the 007 Mk1, I have questions on post #20:


The questions:
1. Do you have 1/4" or 1/8" sorb (8 pieces) on the 007 driver protection plate?
2. What is the width of a piece? Is the width optimized?
3. Do the pieces touch each other? On the picture they seem not to touch each other, but are very close.

Based on my experience with the 007, I could explain some of the effects you noticed without taking resonances in mind:
- elevating the ear pads changes frequency and time domain response
- cutting the sorb into 4, then 8 pieces created ports that loosened the bass
- when you tighten the screws on the headband damping and therefore slightly modifed the shape of them.
What I noticed was that all these factors, especially small headband modifications can alter the sound considerably. Which is great for tuning, but also exposes a lot of variables. 
So, to the last question:
4. I wonder if did you come across a methodology to make sure the mods alter the body vibrations, and not only the body itself? Do you have any heuristics for where to start from and which direction to move, how to change when you hear something? I mean, anything cues other than just experimentally EQ'ing the headphone (the way I started pad mods)?

I started with 1/8 inch but found 1/4 was more effective. I am not sure of the exact size but it is just wide enough so that it doesn' t block the driver openings on the grill. Ikeep the pieces from touching each other.

There is a lot we don't know about what sorbothane is doing to vibrational damping. I recal soren_brix noting that what we were doing with sticking bits of sorbothe was not rocket science. However to actually understand what is going on is probably as complex as rocket science. One thing that is needed is the capability to measure vibrations in the materials comprising the body of earcups and in some instances, like the Stax 007 and Sennheiser Hd800, the headband.

I am sure that if you stress the shape of the earcups that you could change its vibrational characteristics although I don't think it would change the damping characteristics, since the vibrational energy has to be lost by conversion to heat. At least that is what sorbothane claims to do.

While the shape of some phones, especially plastic, may be,altered as you say the 007 would seem to be less likely to do that since the basic earcup is fairly thick alloy of some kind.

As I say some complex issues and all we have at the moment is trial and error.

 

[zolkis]

Thank you! I will use 1/4" sorbothane then, 30 duro self-adhesive if I find such. It's already a helpful cue, saves me from trying a lot of types.

 

[Pokemonn]

my sorbothane sheet arrived my home
I will try to mod my SR-L700
 

 

[zolkis]

Looks like this is the best if I want self adhesive stuff:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sorbothane-Vibration-Isolation-Adhesive-Backing/dp/B009O34WWQ
 
The other option is cutting up a sheet like this, and use glue:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sorbothane-Vibration-Isolation-Square-10-16cm/dp/B005JRN9WU/
 
Since I want the mod reversible, I think I will go with the former option.

 

[edstrelow]

Life is full of surprizes!  It has been more than a week that i had not listen to my lambda nova basic, nor the he 400 and 2 days since i had open the speakers, because in sorbothanizing the amplifier , the dac , and the power strip, after the energizer, i had listen only to the stax SR-5 and the progress in clarity and imaging was very extraordinary... Guess what, this evening by curiosity i listen for the first time the Lambda nova basic  and the he 400, and the speakers for the first time in days after all this use of sorb in the amp, the dac, and power strip... The surprize was total, now i can say that all my gear sound so good than i cannot choose with the same exclusive evidence ... In final i prefer the Sr-5 (because the musical timbre are the most natural on it ) but it is no more so evident, even the speakers are better....The morality of this adventure is simple: the Sorbothane act his magic ALL the WAY up, power strip, dac, amplifier, energizer, headphone, at the end it is a matter of preference which i will listen but if i must choose only one this will be the SR-5 for sure... The sorbothane is magic ... :atsmile:  

Well my friend you have pointed me in another direction. I was sceptical that sorbothane would be of any use on a power strip since I couldn't see where the vibration would come from. Still, I tried it on one and after the glue dried there seemed to be a definite improvement in clarity, the bass in particular lost a certain bloom.or fuzziness.

I use pretty solid metal power strips, in fact some are 220 v hospital grade and showed definite sonic benefits over cheap plastc even before damping. The effects of damping power strips are less obvious than with damping phones and I had a hard time hearing any difference over my speakers. However listening over stat phones was more convincing. So I intend to.look into this some more.

I still find it hard to credit that ac in wires could cause enough mechanical vibration to justify damping. I have had plenty of noisy transformers overvthe years, but power strips?

 

[richard51]

Well my friend you have pointed me in another direction. I was sceptical that sorbothane would be of any use on a power strip since I couldn't see where the vibration would come from. Still, I tried it on one and after the glue dried there seemed to be a definite improvement in clarity, the bass in particular lost a certain bloom.or fuzziness.

I use pretty solid metal power strips, in fact some are 220 v hospital grade and showed definite sonic benefits over cheap plastc even before damping. The effects of damping power strips are less obvious than with damping phones and I had a hard time hearing any difference over my speakers. However listening over stat phones was more convincing. So I intend to.look into this some more.

I still find it hard to credit that ac in wires could cause enough mechanical vibration to justify damping. I have had plenty of noisy transformers overvthe years, but power strips?

dear edstrelow, you have changed my audiophile life and i am glad to be useful... By the way you are right that it is not all that like to discover that an obsolete stax can compete with a higher stax or other high end headphone...  some are a little rude about that news...But even if my Stax SR-5 is no competition with  some over one thousand dollars headphone , (i have no comparison of my own in my experience), the sound of the SR-5 + sorb.  is truly near a natural rendering of the instrumental musical timbre, and this is the MOST important feature in the qualities set of an headphone for me ...
 
By the way i sorb. not only my plastic power strip but also my dac and amplifier, plus the energizer, each made an audible difference of his own, but the 4 mod in unisson made the sr-5 sing...