[bigshot]

I answered your point about impedance, I posted a link to measurements of the Apple dongle, and every one of my posts talks about how to determine teansparency. I’m not keen on going in circles.

 

[hakunamakaka]

What is transparent sound when transducers are the most coloring thing in audio chain ?

The ones that hit harman curve which changes year by year ?

What about different transducer techs and even driver types BA/DD/planars ? What should be considered as a starting point for transparent sound ? They all can bring different sound characteristics to the picture.

Even similarly looking frequency response can sound vastly different

 

[PhonoPhi]

No reason to go in circles... and knocking myself.
I've seen the ref, it cites two upper limits on transducer impedance (that is why I tried to ask about calculations, but I understand that general statements are easier...), and then if everything is already known - what is to discuss here.
I will simply enjoy my different USB dongles

 

[gregorio]

What is transparent sound when transducers are the most coloring thing in audio chain ?

We’re discussing differences between DACs and DACs convert a digital signal to an analogue signal, they do not produce any sound, transparent or otherwise. If you want to discuss what happens before or after the DA conversion, say with the transducers, that’s another topic. How many times?

No reason to go in circles... and knocking myself.

Then why are you?

I've seen the ref, it cites two upper limits on transducer impedance (that is why I tried to ask about calculations, but I understand that general statements are easier...),

There’s already a current thread on HP and Amp impedance, if you want specifics go there. Why go off-topic and round in circles here?

and then if everything is already known - what is to discuss here.

Clearly it’s not already known or understood by everyone, otherwise why would you be arguing?

G

 

[bigshot]

The reason that you want your chain leading up to the transducers to be transparent is because if sources are all colored differently, the sound of a CD would be different than a DAP or streaming. You would need a separate equalizer and an EQ calibration for each one to make the sound consistent. If amps were colored too, then the coloration would stack up and shift even further. If everything was colored, and nothing was calibrated, it would be a chaos of different tone quality.

Thankfully, modern technology allows us to maintain perfect calibration through our sources and amps, so just one EQ calibration at the end of the chain at the amplification stage is needed to correct for the imbalance of the transducer.

DACs and DAPs are designed to be transparent. If they are colored, there is something wrong with them, either by manufacture or design. Lossless digital audio is transparent by design. If a source isn't producing transparent sound, it is out of spec for digital audio standards. Impedance and interference have nothing to do with digital audio. Problems with those manifest in the analog side of the chain.

 

[castleofargh]

If people plug a transducer into a device, that device is more than a DAC or they're using that DAC wrongly! Pages after pages, amps, DAPs, dongles(that AFAIK are DAC/amps) are brought along with their respective sighted anecdotes(of little to no objective value). How does that support anything about DACs causing audible differences?

I don't like any statements that all DACs sound the same, because of course some won't. But I also don't like the assumption that DACs commonly sound clearly different. I don't like it for 2 reasons:
1/ Everything is much easier to test starting with the null hypothesis.
2/ I think it's false and mainly motivated by sighted impressions instead of actual listening.

I have no idea what the actual stats would look like for positive identification of DACs in blind tests. I can make a guess based on a few small sample size tests, measurements of a bunch of DACs, and just the clear tendency we all have to make up or exaggerate differences in sighted tests. But an educated guess is all have and it's not worth much.



The light bulb thing... Sure enough I also have no idea about that.

 

[bigshot]

NOS DACs sound different because they are obsolete technology. All current properly functioning and designed DACs should sound the same. If you want to compare DACs, you should do it by running their analog out into a switcher and into an amp, so you’re comparing DACs, not amps.

 

[hakunamakaka]

When I have measurements of both headphones it is not a rocket science to match their sound with EQ, however yet still they sound so different.

I played with Utopia/HD650 couldn’t bring bass/dynamics/imaging to hd650. Both uses DD driver

Now going further even certain frequency is reproduced differently. 30hz on one headphone had way more pressure than the other. Other freq bands sounded slightly different too, especially in treble area

Plugging them in transperent source HD650 sounds okay, Utopia even technically superior can be pain to your ears. Now once you plug into warmer source it is a no contest between two.

DAC is not just a chip and I do not see a problem with coloring source if it fits your purpose. Transducers colors the sound way more intensively even if you match them with EQ

 

[bigshot]

It sounds like your measurements are wrong. Some headphones can vary in response as much as 5dB from copy to copy. Your set might have a different response in some areas than the one that was measured to make the published response curve.

Also, bass is the wild card. You cant squeeze blood out of a stone. If cans just don’t have the same bass extension, you can’t match them in that area.

 

[hakunamakaka]

It sounds like your measurements are wrong. Some headphones can vary in response as much as 5dB from copy to copy. Your set might have a different response in some areas than the one that was measured to make the published response curve.

Also, bass is the wild card. You cant squeeze blood out of a stone. If cans just don’t have the same bass extension, you can’t match them in that area.

Might be that variation caused these differences, but as a whole headphones signatures had large difference and I couldn't bring them close. Dynamics, transient response felt sluggish on HD650, all build-up in songs and intense music in general were boring compared to utopia. Stereo image was miles behind too. The issue was a bit artificial timbre which I fixed with coloring DAC filter.

I do think that transducers simply hit their design limitations of what they can achieve.

 

[bigshot]

It isn’t likely that your error was dynamics or imaging. If you heard a clear difference, it was response. Response is the majority of the difference between cans, and imbalances can sound like other things to people who don’t EQ much.

Timbre is 100% response. I think you’re just attributing what you hear to the wrong things.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Might be that variation caused these differences, but as a whole headphones signatures had large difference and I couldn't bring them close. Dynamics, transient response felt sluggish on HD650, all build-up in songs and intense music in general were boring compared to utopia. Stereo image was miles behind too. The issue was a bit artificial timbre which I fixed with coloring DAC filter.

I do think that transducers simply hit their design limitations of what they can achieve.

In my limited experience, the amp transients (the ability of the fast current modulations, at least with the portable devices) can be limited, but surely the regulars of this forum know better (Shannon, null hypothesis, light bulbs...)

 

[castleofargh]

When I have measurements of both headphones it is not a rocket science to match their sound with EQ, however yet still they sound so different.

I played with Utopia/HD650 couldn’t bring bass/dynamics/imaging to hd650. Both uses DD driver

Now going further even certain frequency is reproduced differently. 30hz on one headphone had way more pressure than the other. Other freq bands sounded slightly different too, especially in treble area

Plugging them in transperent source HD650 sounds okay, Utopia even technically superior can be pain to your ears. Now once you plug into warmer source it is a no contest between two.

DAC is not just a chip and I do not see a problem with coloring source if it fits your purpose. Transducers colors the sound way more intensively even if you match them with EQ

Also a bad example. It’s actually complicated to have 2 headphones giving the same FR at you eardrum. Matching for the dummy head is easier but still not that consistent. And that EQ accounts for the dummy’s ear, not your own. There is also the way you’ll place the headphones on your head compared to how they sit on the dummy. How a weaker seal(shape of the head, hair) may have different consequences on each headphone.
And no matter what, it’s basically a certainty that at least the treble measured will end up being audibly wrong.
How can that mess be compared to DACs?

Then obviously we have to consider the headphones themselves. The hd650 already has audible level of bass distortions at reasonable listening level. If you push the gain in that region, you get even more distos. So even a proper EQ would logically leave audible differences. We’re talking well over 1% stuff. Go check the amount of disto in your DACs and tell me if it’s a valid analogy for audibility.

It’s fairly intuitive that the more linear or non linear distos a headphone will have, the more differences will remain after EQ compare to some other headphone with different distos. With the A16(speaker simulation), you can use any headphone you like, but it’s the same situation. Only the headphone's FR at your ear is used to correct the headphone. They bother with frequency and time domain for the impulses of the speakers, but decided to leave it at FR for the headphone(something that most people will still have to adjust by ear anyway, because predicting the response at your eardrum is not easy when nothing about the ear canal has been measured).
The better the headphone, the closer the possible result. I happen to use a hd650 with it, because I’m as cheap as they are. And I adore the experience. There isn’t a single doubt in my mind that a hd800 would make more difference that switching between any of my DACs.

About the more philosophical question of having coloration on purpose in DACs. We sure can, but is it desirable? Yes headphones are very colored and the weak link in the playback chain. To anybody seeking fidelity, it means that we should do damage control(avoid the really bad ones, and EQ), and avoid adding more crap to the existing loss. That's what bigshot was referring to, some posts back.
To those who don’t care about fidelity, they can do whatever they want. But would you purchase a DAC with specs close to that of a headphone? The moment some measurements came out, it would be a shame to say we use it in our ”hifi” system. No matter what people like to think, we’re still mostly trying to get something good. The world has moved on to digital because among many benefits, it removed coloration and gave the industry tools that were more consistant and higher fidelity. I cannot help but think that people who want an inferior DAC on purpose are a tiny tiny group.

 

[hakunamakaka]

I adore my turntable with tube caloration, don’t see digital replacing it. Music selection is way better what streaming/digital domain can offer and LP’s are actually growing in popularity year by year.
Could use my dac as neutral, but i preffer it with filter on Utopias. I Don’t see a valid reason to chase as “transparent” sound as possile


I invest time in area where I’m good at and then get what sounds nice to me rather than spending hours of my time for a possibility to match sound more to my liking with gear that I don’t enjoy as much. Don’t think I’m minority

 

[bigshot]

Streaming has much more selection than your LP collection. I have tens of thousands of records myself, but I’d never go back to that exclusively. Digital sounds better, it’s more convenient, it’s less expensive, and there’s a huge library of music available. I can fit my music library in a shirt pocket and play it on the go with the same sound I get at home. No hiss, no crackle, so skips in records, and no inner groove distortion.

You can certainly add coloration to your personal taste, it’s just more practical to do that just before the amplification stage so the coloration is applied consistently across all your sources; and it’s best done by a DSP where you can precisely dial in exactly the type and amount of signal degradation you want.