[bigshot]

Makes no sense. And the ferocity they grab on to the foolishness makes even less sense.

 

[PhonoPhi]

....
I can’t remember where but I recall that 10dBSPL is roughly the noise output by a 100w incandescent light bulb. Of course, you’ve probably never heard that noise because it’s roughly 30 times below the noise floor of an average sitting room and roughly 10 times below the noise floor of most commercial studios. The only place you would likely be able to hear it....

G

You have mentioned a specific value in your excruciatingly long message.

Again, what is the science of the incandescent lamp (filament(?) buzzing?
What are the numbers to arrive at 10 dB?

Would the level of the factual support, quoted above, true for all your statements: " I can't remember" but "you've probably never heard".

We are taking science here, not the vague recollections and personal reflections, right?

How different then your statements here are from the cable worshippers talking about" cleaned up" treble, "punchy" bass and tremendous euphoric enhancement? ;(

 

[bigshot]

You measure sound with a SPL meter. You’re talking there to someone you can learn from. Don’t be a dolt.

 

[bfreedma]

You have mentioned a specific value in your excruciatingly long message.

Again, what is the science of the incandescent lamp (filament(?) buzzing?
What are the numbers to arrive at 10 dB?

Would the level of the factual support, quoted above, true for all your statements: " I can't remember" but "you've probably never heard".

We are taking science here, not the vague recollections and personal reflections, right?

How different then your statements here are from the cable worshippers talking about" cleaned up" treble, "punchy" bass and tremendous euphoric enhancement? ;(

You aren't "taking science here", you're throwing a bunch of random things you don't understand against the wall in the hope that something might stick.

Continually harping on the red herring you created around buzzing lightbulbs isn't helping.

 

[PhonoPhi]

You aren't "taking science here", you're throwing a bunch of random things you don't understand against the wall in the hope that something might stick.

Continually harping on the red herring you created around buzzing lightbulbs isn't helping.

I asked simple factual science questions to be answered based on the statements in the comments.

I am continued to be amazed by the level of personal attacks and irrelevant comments that fully reveal the level of "scientific relevance" of many posters in this thread.

I do continue to count the words needed to answer a specific question on 10 dBSPL of the 100 W incandescent light bulb

 

[bfreedma]

I asked simple factual science questions to be answered based on the statements in the comments.

I am continued to be amazed by the level of personal attacks and irrelevant comments that fully reveal the level of "scientific relevance" of many posters in this thread.

I do continue to count the words needed to answer a specific question on 10 dBSPL of the 100 W incandescent light bulb

You invented a contrived and irrelevant question in an attempt to derail actual discussion. Good luck with that.

I'll let you bounce that back and forth with Bigshot - both of you seemed well equipped to argue semantics while avoiding actual science.

 

[PhonoPhi]

You invented a contrived and irrelevant question in an attempt to derail actual discussion.

That sums up well your level of the factual relevance. Thank you for your contribution to the word count

 

[gregorio]

How different then your statements here are from the cable worshippers talking about" cleaned up" treble, "punchy" bass and tremendous euphoric enhancement? ;(

Really, you can’t tell the difference?

I was obviously using an analogy, I’m obviously not claiming there is an actual 100w incandescent light bulb inside every DAC, I was just using it as an analogous SPL to give some perspective. If the SPL I gave for the bulb is wrong, it doesn’t invalidate my point, just substitute something else that does produce 10dBSPL.

This is different from cable worshippers talking about cleaned up treble or whatever because that’s not an analogy, that’s their actual claim.

Do you really need this obvious difference explained to you?

G

 

[bigshot]

DACs are designed to meet the specs of the digital audio formats they support. That means that they are audibly transparent and they sound the same, as long as they aren't defective.

 

[PhonoPhi]

Really, you can’t tell the difference?

I was obviously using an analogy, I’m obviously not claiming there is an actual 100w incandescent light bulb inside every DAC, I was just using it as an analogous SPL to give some perspective. If the SPL I gave for the bulb is wrong, it doesn’t invalidate my point, just substitute something else that does produce 10dBSPL.

This is different from cable worshippers talking about cleaned up treble or whatever because that’s not an analogy, that’s their actual claim.

Do you really need this obvious difference explained to you?

G

The clear similarity is that the example of a 100-W lamp and cable claims are both factually non-supported statements.
Presence of such statements unvalidate the credibility and the very scientific rigour of any presented arguments.

I understand that the light bulb example was tangential, but I was genuinely curious about the origin of the sound, and could not find any precedents after a quick search, so I asked.

Your first answer and especially the response and the attitude of the "regulars" of this forum were very eloquent to highlight the nature of their contributions...

Now, for the cables, I hope that I do have enough knowledge to separate when they can matter and when they can't (I did few measurements as well, since I was curious, and naively thought that it could help others to know better...)

DACs are much more complex, and considering them separately from some amps is so unpractically theoretical to me - who would care if the signal taken from the DACs with some sensitive multimeters (way more expensive to setup properly than the DAC itself) is "transparent" or not, if any amp in the chain can be much more influential on the "transparency".

We can still try to discuss the transparency limits of the Apple dongle, it can be instructive.

P. S. Accepting the notion that most audiophile DAPs and DACs (with some amps) are coloured as a one of the working hypotheses could be really helpful for the discussion, in my opinion.

 

[bigshot]

What are you talking about? Is there a point to your argument?

DAPs and DACs are generally NOT colored. I have never run across one that was. They ARE separate from amps. Sources are different than amps. And yes, just looking at the measurements of the Apple dongle you can see it is audibly transparent. The numbers are WAY below the threshold. You're saying that accepting that black is white would be helpful for the discussion... well, uh... no.

 

[Davesrose]

Again, what is the science of the incandescent lamp (filament(?) buzzing?
What are the numbers to arrive at 10 dB?

It seems you have an assumption that incandescent lamps produce a buzzing noise....and are asking this community why. The only definitive buzzing I've heard from a standard incandescent bulb is when it's burning out, or I tap it and hear the filament (whole or broken) vibrating. So electricians do say that an incandescent light bulb can buzz if it's operating on a dimmer: IE: it's being regulated from its intended watts. Otherwise, I'm old enough to have spent over half my life with incandescent bulbs, and I don't remember noise. Florescent bulbs, though....that's all I remember.

 

[bigshot]

Gregorio said he read that incandescent bulbs put out a buzz at 10dB. I don’t doubt that. 10dB is very small, and it would never be audible in the real world. I don’t think phonophi has any idea what the numbers represent, so he’s putting undue emphasis on things that don’t matter.

 

[Davesrose]

Gregorio said he read that incandescent bulbs put out a buzz at 10dB. I don’t doubt that. 10dB is very small, and it would never be audible in the real world. I don’t think phonophi has any idea what the numbers represent, so he’s putting undue emphasis on things that don’t matter.

I would believe that for full current incandescent (because 10dB is so small). I do remember as a kid that our house had a dimmer for the dinning room chandelier. When you were rolling it to the lowest dimness, then you did hear buzzing. I'm only bringing up because it's the only accepted scenario I can think of for buzzing incandescent bulbs.

 

[gregorio]

The clear similarity is that the example of a 100-W lamp and cable claims are both factually non-supported statements.
Presence of such statements unvalidate the credibility and the very scientific rigour of any presented arguments.

No that’s NOT the similarity! We don’t dismiss cable claims only on the basis that they’re not factually supported but on the basis that they contradict scientific theory AND directly contradict both countless objective scientific measurements and numerous well controlled double blind tests AND, on top of all that, the claims are unsupported!

And again, the bulb was an analogy, analogies are rarely, if ever, perfectly accurate, they’re just a means of illustration rather than objective claims of fact.

I'm only bringing up because it's the only accepted scenario I can think of for buzzing incandescent bulbs.

No, I’m not referring to dimmers, some of which are very obviously audible and probably go up to 50dBSPL or so. I was referring to just the bulbs themselves. And, there most certainly is an “accepted scenario” in which a 100w incandescent bulb would generate noise, in fact, according to the science, it’s unavoidable. Nyquist/Johnson noise, also called Thermal noise, is present in all electrical circuits and increases with temperature. Thermal noise is commonly the limiting factor of DACs even at room temperature and obviously a 100w incandescent bulb gets very much hotter. So 10dBSPL is certainly a believable figure even though it may (or may not) be incorrect.

G