cyroparts don't understand their own process?

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif actually, "audiophile" has become more of an insult overtime IMO...I'd prefer "audioholic"...to me an "audiophile" is more of an "idiophile" who's willing to pay $499 for a 1ft magic USB cable. PS: haha, this company sells $3K USB cables, and has a 30 days money-back policy...but w/ a 20% restocking fee(because "demand is so high" and they are so "busy building cables"): Locus Design | USB Interconnects it's sad that some ppl fall for this...really sad...indeed idiophilism is a sect of the worst kind, now what kind of bad *ss rig can you get for $3K

High end USB cables are unquestionably the most anti-ethical in-your-face scam the industry has been able to pull. At least with analogue and digital signals you can market better conductivity, jitter levels, etc. but with usb????

a data packet is a data packet!!!! no jitter, no conductivity problems, no nothing!!!!

I tried posting a well researched text in the cable forum at audiogon about this and I was banned, didnt go through. In the meantime there was an extended thread about what usb cable is better....

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif I tried posting a well researched text in the cable forum at audiogon about this and I was banned, didnt go through. In the meantime there was an extended thread about what usb cable is better....

That is what the highend does now days, ban, they can no longer discuss the information present so they want to hide from it. AVS use to be decent and the name says it all, AV science forum, but with the pull that the high end audiophools and companies have now days you can not have a technical discussion unless you are 100% agreeing with the audiophools.

 

[leeperry]

AVS is run by a commercial company...that happens to sell high end A/V gear

and the more it goes the more all those A/V forums are essentially running due to commercial interests....bs pays the bills, ya know.

AVS use their forum(and their paying subscriptions to it) to hype new products even further...turning their board into a giant versatile advertizing, keeping upgraditis live and kicking

PS: I've also read so much bs on projectorcentral.com that my eyes bled...like this article: The Big Judder Problem and the Overhyping of 24p

so much cluelessness on the same page would deserve an award! 24p is overhyped, yikes

 

[Armaegis]

In the metallurgical field, "atomic structure" essentially means the inter-atomic configuration. There are no "molecules" so to speak.

When cryo-treating a metal, here are several things that may or may not happen:
- you lower the solubility of the base metal, which may cause solute to precipitate out
- refinement of grain size (essentially big grains break into smaller ones), which may or may not be correlated to stress relief if there were much stress to begin with
- reduction or removal of residual stress, depending on configuration
- phase change, which is a change in the interatomic structure
- thermal conductivity changes (decreases with grain size refinement, increases with stress, decreases with solute concentration (sort of))
- electrical conductivity changes, usually parallel to thermal conductivity

If working with commercially pure copper, cryo treating in theory should:
- decrease residual stress if the wires were not annealed (as the wire drawing process typically induces high stress, depending on the temperature they were formed at)
- refines grain size
- I do not believe there is any appreciable phase change (I can look it up later), and as we are not working with alloys there should be no solution strengthening mechanism which can affect the electrical properties

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif AVS is run by a commercial company...that happens to sell high end A/V gear and the more it goes the more all those A/V forums are essentially running due to commercial interests....bs pays the bills, ya know. AVS use their forum(and their paying subscriptions to it) to hype new products even further...turning their board into a giant versatile advertizing, keeping upgraditis live and kicking PS: I've also read so much bs on projectorcentral.com that my eyes bled...like this article: The Big Judder Problem and the Overhyping of 24p so much cluelessness on the same page would deserve an award! 24p is overhyped, yikes

Its too bad since some of these forums use to be a real good place to get information or even ask questions. I guess that is the way the USA is going now days.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the metallurgical field, "atomic structure" essentially means the inter-atomic configuration. There are no "molecules" so to speak. When cryo-treating a metal, here are several things that may or may not happen: - you lower the solubility of the base metal, which may cause solute to precipitate out - refinement of grain size (essentially big grains break into smaller ones), which may or may not be correlated to stress relief if there were much stress to begin with - reduction or removal of residual stress, depending on configuration - phase change, which is a change in the interatomic structure - thermal conductivity changes (decreases with grain size refinement, increases with stress, decreases with solute concentration (sort of)) - electrical conductivity changes, usually parallel to thermal conductivity If working with commercially pure copper, cryo treating in theory should: - decrease residual stress if the wires were not annealed (as the wire drawing process typically induces high stress, depending on the temperature they were formed at) - refines grain size - I do not believe there is any appreciable phase change (I can look it up later), and as we are not working with alloys there should be no solution strengthening mechanism which can affect the electrical properties

One question, how does this improve the signal being conducted? I assume you think it makes a difference.

 

[SB]

toenshend cryo interview

Quote:

Can any of this measured? No, not with a DVM or oscilloscope, but a resounding yes with the most sensitive measuring instrument of all: your ears!

Got ya.

 

[sahwnfras]

/\ /\

Well he does have a point.

I gave up on specs years ago, everyone lies. Always let your ears be the judge.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sahwnfras /img/forum/go_quote.gif /\ /\ Well he does have a point. I gave up on specs years ago, everyone lies. Always let your ears be the judge.

Depends, the high end is very "tricky" on their specs but when properly measured by sites like audioholics we get a clear picture. Point being with the cryo snake oil is that there are no changes and hence no difference in sound.

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif One question, how does this improve the signal being conducted? I assume you think it makes a difference.

A few things I should mention since I'm tossing out all this science stuff:
- I have never heard cryo cables
- I am currently working on my PhD in metallurgy

That said, I make no statement regarding whether or not I think it makes a difference in audio. I simply presented what I know regarding generic cryo temperature treatments applied to metals. I have yet to read up on what cryo treatment supposedly improves on. I took a quick gander at the toenshend cryo interview posted above, and while I can glean a bit of info out of that, the writing is vague. I want some hard numbers and how that relates to signal strength/quality.

If someone can point me to some actual research, I will gladly offer my viewpoints on it.

Several times on this forum I have offered to look at samples under electron microscope if someone can provide me with specimens and tell me what I should be looking for (I don't need whole parts; even just a small piece will do). No one's taken me up on that yet.

 

[sahwnfras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends, the high end is very "tricky" on their specs but when properly measured by sites like audioholics we get a clear picture. Point being with the cryo snake oil is that there are no changes and hence no difference in sound.

But have you actually heard them? Everyones ears are different, so everyones gonna hear different. I'v never heard tried these before so I wont comment on them. But to believe everything is snake oil without hearing it, it just makes you look like an idiot.

 

[Catharsis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bop /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever heard of Isotopes?

So you're saying we have a radioactive isotope of copper in our cryo cable? I wish it were that easy to make just by supercooling it.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis That said, I make no statement regarding whether or not I think it makes a difference in audio. I simply presented what I know regarding generic cryo temperature treatments applied to metals. I have yet to read up on what cryo treatment supposedly improves on. I took a quick gander at the toenshend cryo interview posted above, and while I can glean a bit of info out of that, the writing is vague. I want some hard numbers and how that relates to signal strength/quality. If someone can point me to some actual research, I will gladly offer my viewpoints on it. Several times on this forum I have offered to look at samples under electron microscope if someone can provide me with specimens and tell me what I should be looking for (I don't need whole parts; even just a small piece will do). No one's taken me up on that yet.

Ok, sorry for assuming you were a audiophool. Obviously when cooled to almost superconducting levels the metals do change but once they are warmed the metals revert back to their normal state, do they not?

There are no measurements as even the owner of this snake oil company has said. I doubt this snake oil company would give you a free sample to examine so you would have to buy a product to conduct your own tests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sahwnfras But have you actually heard them? Everyones ears are different, so everyones gonna hear different. I'v never heard tried these before so I wont comment on them. But to believe everything is snake oil without hearing it, it just makes you look like an idiot.

Here we go, have you heard it, this is a old audiophool tactic that is used all the time. Have you heard every speaker and every component on this planet? I do not look the idiot as you have stated people like you who assume and believe whatever these snake oil pedlers sell are the idiots. The owner of the snake oil company states that there are no measureable differences so how can anything change?

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, sorry for assuming you were a audiophool. Obviously when cooled to almost superconducting levels the metals do change but once they are warmed the metals revert back to their normal state, do they not? There are no measurements as even the owner of this snake oil company has said. I doubt this snake oil company would give you a free sample to examine so you would have to buy a product to conduct your own tests.

Materials do not necessarily change when cooled to cryo temperatures. Everything hinges on composition and the existing microstructure, as well as any residual stresses and/or deformations.

Material phase changes are usually reversible, especially if the temperature changes are made gradually.

Changes that are not reversible:
- precipitation (ie: of solute alloying elements, carbides, etc)
- change in grain size
- change in internal stresses (usually)

It bugs me a little that there is no presented data, since I have seen some studies that measure a very strong change in thermal and electrical properties of metals after cryo treatment. None of these were done on audio components however.

In my educated opinion, I have my doubts as to whether cryo treatments would make an appreciable difference in audio. I can see it making a difference for something like a brass instrument, but for cables I'm doubtful that the change in electrical resistivity would make any difference perceptible by the human ear. However, proof is in the pudding and all that.

I'm not sure why there's so much hooplah in cryo post-processing anways. We audio nuts are always expousing "source first". The money would be better spent on wire that went through better manufacturing rather than cryo treating afterwards.

 

[MomijiTMO]

Glad to have you here. However, I'd strongly urge you to continue to keep a low profile. By not saying whether you think <insert audio product> makes a difference keeps you neutral and in this case, safe. Audiophiles WILL try and discredit you even though they know jack all about the subject matter.