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cyroparts don't understand their own process?

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by spartan777, Jul 13, 2009.
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  1. SB
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Materials do not necessarily change when cooled to cryo temperatures. Everything hinges on composition and the existing microstructure, as well as any residual stresses and/or deformations.

    Material phase changes are usually reversible, especially if the temperature changes are made gradually.

    Changes that are not reversible:
    - precipitation (ie: of solute alloying elements, carbides, etc)
    - change in grain size
    - change in internal stresses (usually)

    It bugs me a little that there is no presented data, since I have seen some studies that measure a very strong change in thermal and electrical properties of metals after cryo treatment. None of these were done on audio components however.

    In my educated opinion, I have my doubts as to whether cryo treatments would make an appreciable difference in audio. I can see it making a difference for something like a brass instrument, but for cables I'm doubtful that the change in electrical resistivity would make any difference perceptible by the human ear. However, proof is in the pudding and all that.

    I'm not sure why there's so much hooplah in cryo post-processing anways. We audio nuts are always expousing "source first". The money would be better spent on wire that went through better manufacturing rather than cryo treating afterwards.




    With cables it has been proven that when there is a change in measurement it is still irrelevant to how the rest of the system measures. Even the most basic of basic cheap copper that would only measure 99.8% pure would sound the same as 99.999999% pure.

    Besides the brass horn what other advantages are there for cryo treating that are used in the real world with measureable differences?
     
  2. MomijiTMO Contributor
    It has been proven? While a big sceptic myself, I wouldn't be posting such statements without having the journal articles on my computer so I could reference it.
     
  3. MomijiTMO Contributor
    Audiopholic isn't a peer-reviewed journal and therefore doesn't mean much to me. They could have fudged figures and no one would know.

    Do remember I am not a proponent of cables.
     
  4. haloxt
    What?
     
  5. MomijiTMO Contributor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    What?



    [​IMG]
     
  6. haloxt
    Just really perplexed by SB running around sound science forum.
     
  7. MomijiTMO Contributor
    I just spent a few minutes going through their posts and threads and while he/she may think people are not wanting to 'hear the truth', it doesn't belong in sound sciences and is extremely negative to the point of abuse. While I might not agree with the company's products and product design theory, you don't have to flame them into oblivion.
     
  8. Catharsis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sahwnfras /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    But have you actually heard them? Everyones ears are different, so everyones gonna hear different. I'v never heard tried these before so I wont comment on them. But to believe everything is snake oil without hearing it, it just makes you look like an idiot.



    Your point would be valid if it were posted in any forum other than sound science. In case you missed it, this forum is about measurements and empirical evidence....using very precise electronic devices that far surpass the human ear in sensitivity.

    I don't mean to be offensive, but that post actually made you look a bit like an idiot.
     
  9. haloxt
    Yelling at watermelon cats now are we? People are taking this issue too seriously.
     
  10. n3rdling
    Has anyone confirmed that the metals used by some of these manufacturers actually is cryo treated?
     
  11. leeperry
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by n3rdling /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Has anyone confirmed that the metals used by some of these manufacturers actually is cryo treated?



    it sounds better, it's got to be! I love circular logic [​IMG]
     
  12. FraGGleR
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    In the metallurgical field, "atomic structure" essentially means the inter-atomic configuration. There are no "molecules" so to speak.

    When cryo-treating a metal, here are several things that may or may not happen:
    - you lower the solubility of the base metal, which may cause solute to precipitate out
    - refinement of grain size (essentially big grains break into smaller ones), which may or may not be correlated to stress relief if there were much stress to begin with- reduction or removal of residual stress, depending on configuration
    - phase change, which is a change in the interatomic structure
    - thermal conductivity changes (decreases with grain size refinement, increases with stress, decreases with solute concentration (sort of))
    - electrical conductivity changes, usually parallel to thermal conductivity

    If working with commercially pure copper, cryo treating in theory should:
    - decrease residual stress if the wires were not annealed (as the wire drawing process typically induces high stress, depending on the temperature they were formed at)
    - refines grain size
    - I do not believe there is any appreciable phase change (I can look it up later), and as we are not working with alloys there should be no solution strengthening mechanism which can affect the electrical properties




    Quick question, and I hate to bring in another process that is probably controversial with regard to its impact on sound quality, but OCC copper is supposed to have larger crystals (fewer boundaries), which is supposed to be beneficial. Are these crystals the same as the grain that you are talking about? If so, aren't these two treatments or processes contradictory? OCC to make bigger crystals, cryotreatment to reduce their size? I still get confused by what the proper terminology for stuff should be.
     
  13. Armaegis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by FraGGleR /img/forum/go_quote.gif
    Quick question, and I hate to bring in another process that is probably controversial with regard to its impact on sound quality, but OCC copper is supposed to have larger crystals (fewer boundaries), which is supposed to be beneficial. Are these crystals the same as the grain that you are talking about? If so, aren't these two treatments or processes contradictory? OCC to make bigger crystals, cryotreatment to reduce their size? I still get confused by what the proper terminology for stuff should be.



    Hmm, I actually had to read up on OCC to figure out what that was.

    In this context, crystals and grains are understood to be the same thing.

    I have no idea how people expect to get useable cables out of OCC copper. By definition, OCC copper is a single crystal or at the very least directionally solidified. While this potentially gives you all sorts of nice mechanical/electrical properties, you also have next to zero flexibility. Bending it will wind up creating all those grain boundaries that you paid all mucho $$$ to avoid.

    Some of the sites I've read say that electricity flows better when it is uninterrupted by grain boundaries. Sure, that could be true. I could also show that conductivity might be better when it travels along the grain boundaries. I've got enough relevant knowledge in me to convince you either way. (and in partial answer to the question above, finer grain size means more grain boundaries)

    I don't think apply a cryo treatment to OCC wires should make much of a difference. There is no grain structure to modify, and if the copper started out nearly pure then there is no solute (impurities) to precipitate out. By definition of the process, there will also be almost no residual stress to remove. If anything, the cryo process would likely create stress points (but don't quote me on that).
     
  14. googleborg
    superconducting electronics....

    is it feasible to immerse an entire hifi in liquid nitrogen to make it superconducting or would that break it? and exactly how could that improve the sound, heh?


    as for cyro, bloody simple ain't it, just compare non cyro vs cyro metal a few weeks after treatment and see if they 'differ' internally. bit like cable burn in but there has never been any change noticed? welp.
     
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