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cyroparts don't understand their own process?

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by spartan777, Jul 13, 2009.
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  1. Armaegis
    No, it is not feasible. Superconducting doesn't really work like that to begin with, nor do all materials automatically become superconducting at low temperatures. You would also very likely damage the speaker material.
  2. Young Spade
    *cough* *kicks topic to wake it up*
    But this was a very interesting read. I still need to read in depth most of the links that were posted in the earlier pages but I certainly gained a lot of knowledge and also debunked some wrong ideas in the process [​IMG]
  3. spiftacu1ar

    I haven't read through the whole thread yet, so this may already have been adressed:

    I'm pretty sure this is somewhat incorrect. Martensite is formed by rapidly cooling a euctectoid alloy of steel form a temperature above the temperature of the eutectoid point. To understand this, (and why cryo freezing should not form martensite), you need to understand what happens when a eutectoid allow of steel cools normally. When above the 723 C, a eutectoid steel is 100% austenite, which is a close packed FCC crystal structure. When it cools to below 723 C, it seperates into a combination of ferrite and cementite (BCC structure, which is less densely packed) which is called pearlite, since when viewed under a microscope, the lines that can be seen from the way the ferrite and cementite algn looks like a pearl. However, if the metal is quenched (rapidly cooled from above 723C) rather than slowly cooled, the alloy does not have time to seperate into ferrite and cementite, and instead forms martensite, which is a stressed BCC structure that has lots of defects (extra atoms of carbon trapped inside the crystalline structure). Please take note that defects make a metal stiffer and more brittle. Martensite is an extremely stiff, and equally brittle material.
    I am not sure of how cryo effects the process, but I'm pretty sure from my understandings that once a material has settled into ferrite+cementite structure, you can't jsut cool it more to get martensite, since you need to input more energy to get it back into an FCC structure (remember that martensite is formed because the metal cools faster than FCC can transform into BCC). HOWEVER, it may be possible that cryo freezing steels will cause it to collapse into an FCC structure since an FCC is denser (and thus smaller, for same # of atoms) and since cooling something makes it shrink. (please note, this previosu statement was jsut a GUESS, I don't know anything about cryo)
    This may all be irrelevant though, since cryo-parts deals with non-ferrous metals.
    To the OP, atomic vs molecular is just semantics (sp?) for metals, since as mentioned, alloys don't really have distinct molecules. I would describe everything above with either word, its obvious no one is talkign about quarks, although electrons and protons have a lot to do with all this (since bonding and crystalline structures have a lot to do with attraction of atoms, which is effected by protons and electrons). I'm not advocating one way or another (I hadn't even head of cryo-parts till i read this thread), but I'm just saying, your reason for attacking the company seems a bit absurd. It's jsut word choice, nothing more.
    Sorry if this has all been said already, I only read the first 3 pages.
  4. kevin gilmore
    There are no metalic conductors that superconduct at liquid nitrogen temperatures.
    There are a couple of ceramics that do superconduct at liquid nitrogen temperatures.
    Only a couple of metalic conductors actually superconduct at liquid helium temperatures.
    Silver and copper do not superconduct even at .001 Kelvin.
  5. Krav
    I think that's not the people discussing the issues scientifically, but those of the "audiophiles" who are in fact marketers or sellers of these cables who have real reason to fear becoming unsafe at some point in the future. I guess they don't understand that these discussions are not really erasable, and that their identities can be pretty easily traced, even many years later.
    Some of them are making a mistake of posting what definitely qualifies as advertising, but without legal advice and review. A little tweak in the law, like, for example, qualifying headphones as a device using which may have long-term health consequences, could unleash a flurry of investigations and class action lawsuits nicely assisted by the public records going years back.
    Another thing that some of them may not understand, and which I mentioned before, is that they might be serving as fronts for real big-time scammers, in this case, it could be the ones selling equipment, materials, conducting seminars etc. for the DCT, yet it is the fronts, not the behind-the-scenes guys that will take the fall.

  6. haloxt
    Krav, you're kind of paranoid.
  7. Krav
    I know [​IMG] but as Andy Grove maintained, "Only Paranoid Survives" [​IMG]
    On a more serious note, I've been advising colleagues, friends, and extended family members since 2002 to get out of the housing market as the signs of a fraudulent trap about to close were all too obvious to me. Needless to say, have been renting when virtually everyone went ga-ga about the home "ownership". Was called a paranoid as well at times. These days being complimented on that foresight...

  8. haloxt
    I don't see how legal action will be taken against these people. The people who could be blamed for the housing bubble did not get punished. Neither have manufacturers ever been duly punished for harming the public's health.
  9. Krav

    Here's some food for thought on this subject: http://www.dandodiary.com/2007/04/articles/securities-litigation/counting-the-subprime-lender-lawsuits/. Note the recent update to this article. I agree that those who are really responsible for the bubble and profited most from it won't get punished. Yet many of their fronts undoubtedly will. This is an integral part of a successful con game - shifting the blame.
    I also highly recommend visiting this site: http://www.museumofquackery.com/index2.htm. I've seen this museum in person. The look, feel, and marketing language of the devices sold by once-profitable vendors on display there are remarkably close to some of the contemporary "masterpieces" sold by some of the audiophile vendors we are discussing here.
    As to punishment, I'd like to remind those upstanding and honest gentlemen who got involved in the business of selling devices using scientifically unsubstantiated claims that rules of the game changed permanently with the advent of indestructible and easily accessible public electronic records. Even if it never gets to a legal action, there is still something to fear. For instance, one may want to work for a reputable global company one day, but background check will reveal the less than glorious past, and these hopes will be squashed.

  10. dallan Contributor
  11. haloxt
    Krav, if I was going to work for a global company, having a history of selling things at 20x markup would be quite the commendation.
    I don't know why you think you should try to instill the fear of god lawsuits into cable manufacturers.
    I take it you are firmly of the opinion that cables do not make a difference, and I am undecided on this point, as I have yet to see seriously scientific evidence to overturn the incredible amount of anecdotal evidence, neither have I seen objective tests showing audible cable differences, then again even these sort of tests I find lacking.
    And I take it you also think aftermarket cables are usually overpriced, this I agree with. My solution is to not buy the expensive things, help people realize there exist unreasonably marked up cables, but also reasonably priced cables. An understanding of manufacturing and labor costs, and of theoretical or practical shortcomings and benefits of different cables, are integral parts of approaching the topic rationally imo.
    There's a saying, there's truth in every lie, but how can you find it if you don't try? Easier to condemn and persecute, but that is not scientific or objective.
  12. Krav
    Here we disagree. For instance, I don't think that Harman/Lexicon was well served by the employee(s) responsible for this: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/blu-ray-maker-re-boxes-500-player-charges-3500/
    The point is, whoever did that, didn't think through the longer-term consequences. I bet the company lost far more than it gained by that sleight of hand. I, for one, sold everything Harman I had, save for some genuinely old-design AKG headphones my kids use, and don't plan on buying from them for a long while.
  13. haloxt
    Yes, they suffered from that, but nothing like a lawsuit, and imo, what they did is very, very borderline to being illegal, much more so than 99% of cable marketing. If I had my way they would pay financially very dearly and those responsible doing seppuku, but since we don't live in a world where I am tyrant, all I can do is boycott every harman brand until they apologize and promise never to do it again. I think we can safely put aside any thought of cable manufacturers being punished until harman has been punished for doing that $500 cd player in a $3500 box.
  14. Uncle Erik Contributor
    Haloxt, the burden of proof is on the people making claims. Anecdotal evidence also "proves" the efficacy of witch doctors, palm readers and psychic healers. I'll believe in them if they produce actual evidence, just I will cables, cryo or green markers for CDs. Anecdotal evidence is easily fabricated, especially when you're making a killing on margins. I'm not sure why manufacturers run and hide when asked for evidence; there's a huge economic incentive to produce it. They'd whup the competition and make even more money. The only reasonable conclusion is that they've privately tested and found nothing. Just like everyone else who has tried.
  15. haloxt


    People can conclude however they want, but unless people start suing each other it's just a lot of arguing.
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