[klyzon]

That sort of lined up with my initial thoughts on the phantoms. But still, the thick notes and warmth is oddly satisfying enough for me to overlook its lack of technical performance

Definitely an opinion splitting iem

 

[HatIsMyFriend]

Now, the largest oddity I have with Phantom is not the sound signature, per say. Like others have mentioned, it's definitely not neutral, and very specific and unique in its presentation. Not a bad thing, a lot of IEMs and headphones have strange, specific signatures only a special few will love, and that's perfectly fine.

It's when I hear about it being a good general-use IEM that I'm confused. Of course, everyone's playlist is different, some people might lean towards one thing or another, but I can say with certainty that some genres suffer with such an unusual signature. Mostly, vocal-centric tracks, male or female, sounding hollow and off. Instrumentals are fine, in fact, I find them rather respectable on Phantom, but the sheer oddness of the midrange is a head-scratcher for me. Though, I have heard from Phantom custom owners that, in custom form, it sounds entirely different, which I can understand. Empire customs are fairly deep, and the universals shallow if worn with the stock tips, so it could just be due to that.

Then again, I'm the sort of person that found Andromeda lacking midrange, so perhaps that's just me being picky.

 

[sahmen]

i do appreciate the work that @crinacle has done in ranking these phones, and I would like to commend him for a job well done, while also registering a nitpick with regard to some of the language with which he has described the properties of some of the phones he has listed and ranked on his grid. Case: in point: yesterday, I was looking at Massdrop's x Noble Kaiser X K10 drop with a lot of interest, and I was about to pull the trigger when I was directed to the rankings on this thread.

I first noticed that the Noble K10 was ranked as a Tier A headphone, which I found to be decently encouraging, until I read crinacle's description:

"Very safe tuning, almost to the point of boredom. Does nothing wrong but nothing right either"

I was particularly struck and taken aback by the idea that a pair of phones for which I was about to blow $899, was apparently boring, and "does.. nothing right." I confess that it did occur to me that there might be some exaggeration in that expression, since a pair of monitors which literally "does... nothing right" could not possibly find a place among the Tier - A listing of a ranking system created by the very person who made that comment (or, if you like, "doing nothing right" shouldn't normally score an "A" rating in any ranking system, since doing nothing right should rightfully belong among the lowest of the lowest in "garbage" monitors, if not worse, in my estimation)...

No, that had to be an exaggeration, and an unfortunate one at that... Well exaggerated or not, the fact is that after reading that evaluation, I could no longer bring myself to pull the trigger on the K10s until the drop expired, and today, I am left wondering whether I have made a mistake by not going through with it...

I say this without meaning to blame crinacle for my confusion and indecision, or to be too hard on him for providing this service voluntarily, a service which seems pretty valuable to the enthusiast community,,,

I just want to draw attention to the effect his language about the K10 had on me" in case there is something that can be done about it... I do think that some tweaking of the language might be necessary to make that particular evaluation sound less extreme and dismissive... However, I also realize that he has to make the call about that, since this is his thread...


Any way, I have said enough.

 

[cantsleep]

I think that k10 is pretty solid, especially for the price.
Soundstage is not so wide but better than average.
Great range, both highs and lows, but feels somewhat artificially achieved.
Bass is pretty good but not densed or thick in texture, rather hollowed.
Midrange is slightly recessed but not by far.
Treble may be bothersome peaky to one or just great to another.

It might just be better to get it used, try em for a little bit, and move on to different sets of iems. You will probably get bored with it pretty fast, at least soon after you get to audition other fun sounding or more technically advanced sets of iems.

 

[ctaxxxx]

i do appreciate the work that @crinacle has done in ranking these phones, and I would like to commend him for a job well done, while also registering a nitpick with regard to some of the language with which he has described the properties of some of the phones he has listed ranked on his grid. Case: in point: yesterday, I was looking at Massdrop's x Noble Kaiser X K10 drop with a lot of interest, and I was about to pull the trigger when I was directed to the rankings on this thread.

I first noticed that the Noble K10 was ranked as a Tier A headphone, which I found to be decently encouraging, until I read crinacle's description:

"Very safe tuning, almost to the point of boredom. Does nothing wrong but nothing right either"

I was particularly struck and taken aback by the idea that a pair of phones for which I was about to blow $899, was apparently boring, and "does.. nothing right." I confess that it did occur to me that there might be some exaggeration in that expression, since a pair of monitors which literally "does... nothing right" could not possibly find a place among the Tier - A listing of a ranking system created by the very person who made that comment (or, if you like, "doing nothing right" shouldn't normally score an "A" rating in any ranking system, since doing nothing right should rightfully belong among the lowest o lowestf "garbage" monitors, if not worse, in my estimation)...

No, that had to be an exaggeration, and an unfortunate one at that... Well exaggerated or not, the fact is that after reading that evaluation, I could no longer bring myself to pull the trigger on the K10s until the drop expired, and today, I am left wondering whether I have made a mistake by not going through with it...

I say this without meaning to blame crinacle for my confusion and indecision, or to be too hard on him for providing this service voluntarily, a service which seems pretty valuable to the enthusiast community,,,

I just want to draw attention to the effect his language about the K10 had on me" in case there is something that can be done about it... I do think some that some tweaking of the language might be necessary to make that particular evaluation sound less extreme and dismissive... However, I also realize that he has to make the call about that, since this is his thread...


Any way, I have said enough.

Did you read other reviews and compare them to Crinacle's? Just because he has a ranking system, doesn't make him the only source of truth. Especially, when you're only taking into account a brief description versus an in-depth review.

I use Crinacle's chart and summaries as a baseline, then confirm with actual reviews before I make my decision. I even ask users in the respective forums if I'm still not sure. There are many options out there to help you decide. Crinacle's input is very helpful and he's put into a lot of time and effort into this thread (and the measurements thread), but at the end of the day, it's still his subjective opinion. I believe he tries to be objective as possible though.

 

[sahmen]

I think that k10 is pretty solid, especially for the price.
Soundstage is not so wide but better than average.
Great range, both highs and lows, but feels somewhat artificially achieved.
Bass is pretty good but not densed or thick in texture, rather hollowed.
Midrange is slightly recessed but not by far.
Treble may be bothersome peaky to one or just great to another.

It might just be better to get it used, try em for a little bit, and move on to different sets of iems. You will probably get bored with it pretty fast, at least soon after you get to audition other fun sounding or more technically advanced sets of iems.

Thanks for this input. If I can get them used at a reasonable price, I'll give them a try. Of course, I could also find others which I can buy with more confidence.

Did you read other reviews and compare them to Crinacle's? Just because he has a ranking system, doesn't make him the only source of truth. Especially, when you're only taking into account a brief description versus an in-depth review.

I use Crinacle's chart and summaries as a baseline, then confirm with actual reviews before I make my decision. I even ask users in the respective forums if I'm still not sure. There are many options out there to help you decide. Crinacle's input is very helpful and he's put into a lot of time and effort into this thread (and the measurements thread), but at the end of the day, it's still his subjective opinion. I believe he tries to be objective as possible though.

Of course I did, although I did so over a 24 - 36 hour period, and I wish I had had more time to see more reviews, and to ponder my options. Before seeing crinacle's rankings, the view I was getting was generally strong :in favor of the K10s. Although they were relatively not the most recent reviews, they generally snowed respect for the K10s, giving me the impression that they were a venerable kind of flagship of not too long ago, whose glory days may have passed, but very much worth the $899 that Massdrop was asking for them. As with every pair of phones, however, there were a few unfavorable reviews too, particularly ones which took the view that even the Massdrop price was still a little excessive (even if it was nearly half the original MSRP).

Normally, I would agree with the approach you have suggested, but I had extremely limited time to research this unit myself, and the somewhat dismissive language of crinacle stopped me dead in my tracks

One major problem I have is also that I am relatively very new to the world of iems, and the pricing practices which govern them, and how to evaluate them in relation to performance. I am more familiar with the world of full-size phones, which I use very often. Maybe I was less confident about the choice of the K10s as a result of that relative inexperience, but I do not necessarily see this as a sad story, especially since I did not pull the trigger. No harm was really done. I generally prefer to make buying decisions when I am surer of myself than I was yesterday, and if I know this hobby well, another opportunity will come soon. However, I still have to figure out what TOTL iems will suit me best, and I do not get opportunities to do any personal auditioning or go to meets, so the path forward is still not as clear as I would it like to be.

 

[crinacle]

Regarding the K10, I am not the biggest fan. Perhaps doing "nothing right" may be a subpar choice of words but I prefaced it in that it does nothing wrong either. The music is there; there's nothing special going on but of course there aren't any glaring weaknesses to speak of either.

"Jack of all trades" isn't a word I would use since I believe the K10 is characterised with a certain low excitement, low-dynamics sound. Of course, credit where credit is due, its technical ability is within the realm of the A tier IEMs. It's a safe tuning and that's my best concise descriptor of it.

 

[BananaOoyoo]

Regarding the K10, I am not the biggest fan. Perhaps doing "nothing right" may be a subpar choice of words but I prefaced it in that it does nothing wrong either. The music is there; there's nothing special going on but of course there aren't any glaring weaknesses to speak of either.

"Jack of all trades" isn't a word I would use since I believe the K10 is characterised with a certain low excitement, low-dynamics sound. Of course, credit where credit is due, its technical ability is within the realm of the A tier IEMs. It's a safe tuning and that's my best concise descriptor of it.

In my opinion, this hits the nail right on the head for the K10. I was strongly considering purchasing it last fall when Massdrop had it available, but after listening to it in store, I felt like while it didn’t do anything wrong, it was missing anything that made it special. I look forward to listening to music on my Andromeda - that excitement is entirely missing with the K10.

 

[ajaxender]

"nothing wrong but nothing exceptional" seems like a fair description in my experience. Doing nothing wrong sounds backhanded, but with IEMs I think it's a pretty good achievement in itself. The issue is that if you don't love the specific tuning balance, it's not doing any one thing so well to make up for that. I got one from Massdrop myself, just to see if it did click, but nah, the Andromeda is more for me across the board.

But then, this is the whole point of measuring everything, is it not? I have no doubt the K10 tuning is for a lot of people. Solid bass boost and a upper-mid range bump that's most of the way towards diffuse field tuning (~8db above the dip at 1kHz rather than 10). Many people want that bump; that's why there's this whole discussion around the Phantom being 'natural' or not, and I've seen a few people say that the Andromeda 'lacks mids'. Clearly neither of them 'lack mids', but if you want that upper-mid boost you'll be left wanting. To try and be diplomatic, I think we're in a phase where 'natural tonality' is the current Good Thing, but not everyone is going to agree on what that is.

 

[mathi8vadhanan]

I think that k10 is pretty solid, especially for the price.
Soundstage is not so wide but better than average.
Great range, both highs and lows, but feels somewhat artificially achieved.
Bass is pretty good but not densed or thick in texture, rather hollowed.
Midrange is slightly recessed but not by far.
Treble may be bothersome peaky to one or just great to another.

It might just be better to get it used, try em for a little bit, and move on to different sets of iems. You will probably get bored with it pretty fast, at least soon after you get to audition other fun sounding or more technically advanced sets of iems.

K10u (ABS Plastic version) was underwhelming pitted against the other $1K iems (SE846 and IE800). It got boring very fast, sold it within a month.
I got it used and luckily came out without a huge loss, thanks to the hype train. This was early 2015, now I wouldn't advise anyone getting it.
Not sure, if the Aluminium shells are re-tuned and are an upgrade though.

 

[shutterbox]

Same goes with the N8t, looking past the LX's wall of bass does lead me to believe that the LX has a slight resolution advantage, which would put the N8t one tier below the LX. Then again, the tonal balance and bass control is much better on the N8t and there is a slight edge in soundstage width based off aural memory (since the two demo units are in different shops so I am unable to A/B compare). So, I guess I'll put them in the same league as a whole, individual sound preferences notwithstanding.

I'll probably adjust the rankings again further down the line, they aren't set in stone forever. For now though, I guess they are basically the best hybrids in the game.
.

Hi Crinacle,

Thank you for your views of those sets of hybrids.

on the N8t, how would you compared the top tier headphones like Clear/Utopia, HD800s that you said you use/own?

for a SGD2500 set of earphones, I am wondering if it gives something that the top tier headphones don't give, given that good amplification is applied in both cases.

 

[Doctortre2481]

Hi Crinacle,

Thank you for your views of those sets of hybrids.

on the N8t, how would you compared the top tier headphones like Clear/Utopia, HD800s that you said you use/own?

for a SGD2500 set of earphones, I am wondering if it gives something that the top tier headphones don't give, given that good amplification is applied in both cases.

Wondering the same looking for a Totl ciem thinking n8 might be wondering how it compares to some of the other totl.

 

[crinacle]

Hi Crinacle,

Thank you for your views of those sets of hybrids.

on the N8t, how would you compared the top tier headphones like Clear/Utopia, HD800s that you said you use/own?

for a SGD2500 set of earphones, I am wondering if it gives something that the top tier headphones don't give, given that good amplification is applied in both cases.

Wondering the same looking for a Totl ciem thinking n8 might be wondering how it compares to some of the other totl.

Just went to Music Sanctuary and got myself an N8 after a few hours of extra deliberation actually. I think I've got a good grasp on what the N8 can and cannot do by now.

IEMs of course, are a constant game of compromise. You win some here, you lose some there. In many ways, an IEM will never properly reproduce the imaging and/or dynamics of a full-sized headphone setup so it is a rather unfair comparison. At this current time, I would say that a TOTL headphone will always be technically better than a TOTL IEM.

My decision was between the N8 and the Legend X, and the N8 was the obvious choice (to me) considering that it was a lot cheaper, had a cleaner bass boost, was less coloured in the midrange and was tonally more neutral. Between the N8 and the A12t, the A12t was certainly the more "technical" of the two, boasting slightly more textured notes in comparison to the N8's more smoothed and weighted hits.

 

[shutterbox]

Just went to Music Sanctuary and got myself an N8 after a few hours of extra deliberation actually. I think I've got a good grasp on what the N8 can and cannot do by now.

IEMs of course, are a constant game of compromise. You win some here, you lose some there. In many ways, an IEM will never properly reproduce the imaging and/or dynamics of a full-sized headphone setup so it is a rather unfair comparison. At this current time, I would say that a TOTL headphone will always be technically better than a TOTL IEM.

My decision was between the N8 and the Legend X, and the N8 was the obvious choice (to me) considering that it was a lot cheaper, had a cleaner bass boost, was less coloured in the midrange and was tonally more neutral. Between the N8 and the A12t, the A12t was certainly the more "technical" of the two, boasting slightly more textured notes in comparison to the N8's more smoothed and weighted hits.

I remember retail price of n8 is about 2.5k on standard options.
What kind of headphones can be technically better than n8 ?
Senn hd6xx series?
Focal clear?

I'm looking at getting some good headgear for home use and am wondering if I'm better of getting a technically better headphone for less money

 

[crinacle]

I remember retail price of n8 is about 2.5k on standard options.
What kind of headphones can be technically better than n8 ?
Senn hd6xx series?
Focal clear?

I'm looking at getting some good headgear for home use and am wondering if I'm better of getting a technically better headphone for less money

With a desktop setup, maybe not a HD6XX but a Clear would definitely be better than a N8.

The issue with a desktop setup vs a portable setup is that they are designed to be used in a "good environment", AKA one in relative dead silence. In those cases yes, no IEM can beat it.

However, I am willing to compromise some imaging and detail for isolation and efficiency. I will never get the same sound out of my HD800 on a crowded bus out of an iPhone. The N8 on the other hand, with its enhanced bass and custom fit, will get me 95% of the way there just like that.