[howl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I listened to flac vs mp3 (lame --preset extreme) I could never tell the difference unless I knew what to specifically look for (cause someone else mentioned it). I would then hear the flaw and be amazed with my self for noticing it (knowing where it is on the timecode helps a lot, really!). But during normal use anywhere I use an mp3 player I honestly can not tell the difference and never could. Now my equipment is not super high end, but one of my headphones is probably the ultimate headphone to test for any audio imperfections. The infamous Etymotic ER4P/S. At that time I was trying: Audigy 2 NX -> Pimeta -> { ER4S or HD595 } and the only time I could find a flaw in MP3 is when I knew where to look On the other hand I would consider flac support critical in a large capacity HD player such an iPod Classic or anything with 60 or more GB. Why? Because that is where my primary collection of music would be it would be a major PITA to have to keep an mp3 copy and a flac copy on my primary source. Normally I just trascode flac into mp3 (using my pc) (lame extreme) when syncing to a portable device. I prefer flash players due to their small size.

God not even placebo can fix the iPod classic's headphone output lol

 

[Amblin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by howl /img/forum/go_quote.gif God not even placebo can fix the iPod classic's headphone output lol

Indeed. Only reason I would consider buying one is to salvage the hard drive out of it and sell the rest on eBay.

 

[LostPhil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif The X5 sound quality is actually pretty much identical to iPod Nano. Which is to say in most cases fairly good. It does have very obvious bass roll off just like the nano (I have tested that myself). So steer away from low impedance headphones. Something over 32 ohm would be great. My HD280 Pro sounded quite good with it. My 29OHM E4c were definitely suffering from X5's bass roll off.

Just out of interest, was that out of the line out of the X5? That was known to have problems, but the headphone out was shown not to have this problem. (infact, the low end was boosted a little if I remember rightly, giving the X5 a warm sound).

As for the D2 vs. A818, I've never tried the Sony (hence why I haven't voted). If you pair the D2 with some warm headphones, it can sound very good. The seperation of the instruments is great and the details jump out at you.

The bass (with low impedance headphones) is a little rolled off but with a little tweaking with the Eq and mach3bass (I'm not going for a boombox sound here folks before the flaming starts) I can hear all of the bass lines/notes without it being overpowering. I have never tried higher-impedence headphones but apparently this solves the "problem".

It can sound a bit sibilant but I reduce the 9khz band by a couple of notches and the problem's solved.

If you are prepared to spend a little time fiddling then you can get it to sound exactly how you would like but I'd advise against pairing with a bright headphone.

 

[sigsegv0x0B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by howl /img/forum/go_quote.gif God not even placebo can fix the iPod classic's headphone output lol

Excuse me? I do not think you have any idea what you are talking about. iPods always had exemplary line-out performance perhaps except the first 2 generations (1.e. 1G and 2G) about a decade ago. The rest of ipods have outstanding line out performance. Instead of talking such crap please find me an example of a test showing poor line out performance.

I have tested the following ipods line outs: iPod Photo, iPod Nano, nano v2, iPod Video 5.5G. And they all had examplary line out performance usually equaling or beating such (apparently famous) players like X5.


On the other hand please find me some evidence of ipod's poor line out?

Also what iPod Classic are you talking about? Have you seen one?
Here just in case

The Apple Store (U.S.) - iPod classic

This particular iPod classic has VERY good line out quality.

 

[LostPhil]

He was referring to the headphone out, not the line out. I know you probably used the line out in your tests but he's probably been saving that quip up for a while

And the X5's line out is famously bad. Headphone out is good. Don't mix them up

 

[sigsegv0x0B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostPhil /img/forum/go_quote.gif He was referring to the headphone out, not the line out. I know you probably used the line out in your tests but he's probably been saving that quip up for a while And the X5's line out is famously bad. Headphone out is good. Don't mix them up

All iPods since Nano (Nanos, 5G iPods and later) also have good headphone outs. At least competitive with most other players. For example Nano's headphone out is at least as good as the X5 (and possibly a tad better).

 

[mojolo]

i think it fluctuates. i wasn't too happy with my 2nd Gen Nano so i sold it. the headphone out of my laptop was comparable, which isn't a good thing.

 

[rhcp_kz]

Just one thing,


Sony A818 ftw!

 

[Amblin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif All iPods since Nano (Nanos, 5G iPods and later) also have good headphone outs. At least competitive with most other players. For example Nano's headphone out is at least as good as the X5 (and possibly a tad better).

Uh-huh. You can pace over graphs of frequency response graphs all day, but in the end there is only one thing that matters.

What do your EARS think of the sound?

 

[shigzeo]

yeah mate - it does matter what our ears think but why is it when graphs and charts come into factor that we suddenly don't like them? are you sure if you had the same earphones in your ears and had level and volume adjusted amps sitting in front of you with a friend in an unseen location changing sources that you would be able to tell ipod from cowon or sony from meizu? if so, then good but... which would sound best if you were not told which was which?

placebo works many colours. scientific evidence of good performance is one of the only factors we have here that can affect placebo. placebo as for new products with excellent spec sheets for instance always win over products that don't publish or that have no advertisement of good sound quality. why do you think the ipod is not so heavily regarded in sq while the new kenwoods are? years ago when kenwood released that portable amplifier it was described as muddy by many and very needed of eqing. i too agree as i have owned 2 players that use the same amp and felt that without eq they are rubbish.

but...kenwood publishes it as high sound quality and then says it is class d amplifer. that is enough to charm the masses. what about cowon? adverstise an 16ohm amp at 74mw per channel and say it sounds great - so it must. apple? size and features of the software.

lets get our eyes out of this audio process - if we have to get away from graphs, we must get away from reviews, product adverts etc. then we can hear the true sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigsegv0x0B /img/forum/go_quote.gif RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison Can someone test a D2 loaded with 16ohm and post? Sony does cheat a little... But overall it does sound excellent. I have an older NW-A1000 that tests better in frequency response. It's totaly flat with no bass rolloff even on 16ohm headphones. The NWZ-S616F has an excellent amp but sony cheats with the frequency response by boosting the bass and highs by 0.5db... which is not a huge deal but is audible. Over the NWZ-S616F sounds really good however. The best IMHO is the older NW-A1000.

was the sony under load as well? if not, then it is not a fair comparison but if so, that would indeed be a special player. almost no players at all can pass an under load assesment. i am quite sure that the d2 would not either but i have not seen 16ohm loaded graphs. it had better do better than that as the amp is rated at 16ohm.

 

[sigsegv0x0B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif yeah mate - it does matter what our ears think but why is it when graphs and charts come into factor that we suddenly don't like them? are you sure if you had the same earphones in your ears and had level and volume adjusted amps sitting in front of you with a friend in an unseen location changing sources that you would be able to tell ipod from cowon or sony from meizu? if so, then good but... which would sound best if you were not told which was which? placebo works many colours. scientific evidence of good performance is one of the only factors we have here that can affect placebo. placebo as for new products with excellent spec sheets for instance always win over products that don't publish or that have no advertisement of good sound quality. why do you think the ipod is not so heavily regarded in sq while the new kenwoods are? years ago when kenwood released that portable amplifier it was described as muddy by many and very needed of eqing. i too agree as i have owned 2 players that use the same amp and felt that without eq they are rubbish. but...kenwood publishes it as high sound quality and then says it is class d amplifer. that is enough to charm the masses. what about cowon? adverstise an 16ohm amp at 74mw per channel and say it sounds great - so it must. apple? size and features of the software. lets get our eyes out of this audio process - if we have to get away from graphs, we must get away from reviews, product adverts etc. then we can hear the true sound. was the sony under load as well? if not, then it is not a fair comparison but if so, that would indeed be a special player. almost no players at all can pass an under load assesment. i am quite sure that the d2 would not either but i have not seen 16ohm loaded graphs. it had better do better than that as the amp is rated at 16ohm.

Yes the NWZ-S616F was driving the same headphones as YP-P2 loaded. 16ohm load.

This Sony sounds really good to my ears using Shure E4C, HD595 and HD497. Ety ER4P/S aren't agreeable with it until you dial down higher frequency a bit via EQ. Then it becomes excellent. Basically Sony 'cheats' but it works. I love how this player sounds.

 

[wader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif lets get our eyes out of this audio process - if we have to get away from graphs, we must get away from reviews, product adverts etc. then we can hear the true sound. was the sony under load as well? if not, then it is not a fair comparison but if so, that would indeed be a special player. almost no players at all can pass an under load assesment. i am quite sure that the d2 would not either but i have not seen 16ohm loaded graphs. it had better do better than that as the amp is rated at 16ohm.

Oh, there's plenty of tests folks have done, e.g. here.

Funny, no mention of trance music somehow confusing the D2's bottom end, though.

Graphs and such are good for determining some obvious causes for effects we happen to notice, IMHO. Such as ramping EQs and effects too high, adding clipping and/or unwanted noise to eventual output.

Sometimes, they give us hints of further potentials not yet realized - more to explore through experience. Not much else, though. The combination of tastes, ears, listening devices, source data are more important to consider, I feel. In context, at all times.

- wader

 

[shigzeo]

those graphs are analyising the sound effects of cowon, not the ability to drive headphones. i will agree that for all my complaining of the cowon, the s effects are quite good at introducing almost no distortion. i am impressed. however, they change the sound quite too much for my poor ears.

i never use them as i get fatigued very quickly.

haha, i seem to be the only trance lover that uses d2. too bad. it is honestly with bass heavy phones quite terrific. i cannot listen to my favourite music with them unless it is slow trance fed faithless or something.

 

[wader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif those graphs are analyising the sound effects of cowon, not the ability to drive headphones.

Read more carefully - that example shows driven loads from 0 to 16 on up, among other things. Other graphs at the same site have them driving specific phones. Such as tests I did on the shipped COWON buds vs. Sennheiser PX100s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif haha, i seem to be the only trance lover that uses d2. too bad. it is honestly with bass heavy phones quite terrific. i cannot listen to my favourite music with them unless it is slow trance fed faithless or something.

I asked you previously for examples which seemed to cause this situation. Nobody at iaudiophile could substantiate your claim, and some folks there listen to rather fast and complicated music. I feel your claim is unique, but would prefer to test for my own ears and understand what you are saying. Share your setup, please: song choices, source format, EQ/effects settings and phones.

No DAP/PMP is perfect, but associating the D2 with lack of rendering detail is probably the last thing I'd expect to hear about its faults.

- wader

 

[sigsegv0x0B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wader /img/forum/go_quote.gif Read more carefully - that example shows driven loads from 0 to 16 on up, among other things. Other graphs at the same site have them driving specific phones. Such as tests I did on the shipped COWON buds vs. Sennheiser PX100s.

Actually it does not. It only shows the player driving a constant 16ohm load (i.e. a resistor?). NOT DRIVING HEADPHONES. Headphones are a reactive load where impedance constantly changes. Also it's a static tone at 1kHz not a freq sweep. So again that doesn't show anything useful. Except how load can a D2 go?

The RMAA tests were done without having a load hooked up. On the other hand those RMAA results aren't all that impressive. A first gen Nano usually scores better then that driving line out.

Quote:

I asked you previously for examples which seemed to cause this situation. Nobody at iaudiophile could substantiate your claim, and some folks there listen to rather fast and complicated music. I feel your claim is unique, but would prefer to test for my own ears and understand what you are saying. Share your setup, please: song choices, source format, EQ/effects settings and phones.

Or just show us how well can a D2 do what people claim it does well but provide no backup for. DRIVE A PAIR OF HEADPHONES.

Quote:

No DAP/PMP is perfect, but associating the D2 with lack of rendering detail is probably the last thing I'd expect to hear about its faults.

Well I have no idea what it faults are but to this day I have no idea if the Cowon D2 is a useful as an audio player because I haven't seen how well it can drive headphones....

I am not saying D2 is a bad player, I am however saying I have seen nothing to suggest it is a good audio player. And certainly a lot of ppl feel emotional about their new toy also... which means it's a cute device that ppl like.

The players I tested myself I was able to buy at big box stores with return policy. Sadly no big box store carries the D2 and small stores that do not offer a return policy. I am not willing to risk my money to test this unit.