[Cenacheros]

   
If the AKG K812 and LCD-X sound bright straight into my Hugo, what would be a better choice of full-size headphones?

Purely from my observations on the Forum,Fostex TH900 seem to be a recurring favourite.

 

[headfirocks]

  Purely from my observations on the Forum,Fostex TH900 seem to be a recurring favourite.

 
Can they be driven well straight from the Hugo without an amp?  Should they be less bright than the LCD-X?

 

[estreeter]

@headfirocks, I've given you my recommendation but it would seem that you are only interested in 'serious' audiophile cans. I'm currently listening to a brighter source than the Hugo - the Oppo BDP-105D - to try to get a better idea of exactly what DSD really brings to the table for me, and I can confidently say that the LCD2.2 does a better job of handling the treble peaks that I cant quite handle from this source with the LCD-X or HD800, but most here consider these cans to be too dark for their liking. Oddly enough, one of the biggest complaint about the 2.2 was the 'recessed' treble - it would seem that there's no pleasing us.
 
For those wondering what I'm currently listening to, it's one of the samples from this site:
 
http://bluecoastrecords.com/store
 
Keith Greeninger and Dayan Kai - Looking For a Home
 
The acoustic guitar is fantastic as are the solo vocals but the louder chorus is ambushing me repeatedly atm and even the X1 cant completely negate that 'gah !' instinct. Time to go and do something else, methinks  

 

[Duncan]

Now with Hugo, I designed the amp as if it was a power amp to feed loudspeakers. Indeed, I had a very enjoyable evening a few days ago, with Hugo (and only Hugo) driving Axjet horn loudspeakers outside in the garden! It was surprisingly loud... Anyhow, Hugo has a low 0.075 ohms OP impedance, much lower than regular headphone amps. Perhaps damping factor is important with headphones too? I will be doing some listening tests on this issue shortly.

Rob

It definitely does to these ears, the HiFi M8 I have has selectable OP impedance (1, 2 and 11ohm) and this plays a massive part as to how fluid the overall tone (but especially the bottom end) is - some headphones definitely react better to (or, with) differing OP impedance than others.

 

[deadie]

If the AKG K812 and LCD-X sound bright straight into my Hugo, what would be a better choice of full-size headphones?

 
So, roundable response ahead, but to start, the only two cans currently in my stable are the HD800 and the LCD-X.  
 
I've detailed earlier how I believe the HD800 needs an amp for its character to be fully released / realized.  Straight out of the Hugo, the HD800 sounds musical, but thin.  With robust amplification, this headphone can achieve very very low and tight bass even at low volumes.  Very satisfying.
 
I actually very much like the X straight out of the Hugo, it was that pairing that made me fall for Hugo's sound.  I can see how the X's character can be perceived as bright, though.  It was a funner, faster sound evolution from the earlier LCD-2, which would then be one of the "darker" cans to demo with Hugo.
 
An old school but heralded can was the Senn HD600.  It's very musical, but again, one of the darker sounding headphones out there.  Still sold new, it's bargain priced, just give it a while to burn in.
 
That's pretty much all I got.  Others will need to chime in as I have no experience with Denons, Audio Technica, Hifiman.
 
So to wrap, I know I'm harping on this and am in conflict with Rob Watts, but IMO you'll need an amp.  Those latter two "darker" headphones won't be sufficiently driven by the Hugo.  Straight out of the Hugo, the LCD-2 and the Senn HD600 will get you that sound signature I think you're looking for, but you'll be far away from hearing the true dynamics of those cans.
 
One more thing... thinking about it, now that I'm a few months into Hugo ownership, I'm less fixated on the "holy crap I spent how much on this thing, it better be my end game one and only I'm going to hear every last iota of music in my collection".  
 
I enjoy Hugo's core purity of sound in some instances, 1:1 with my UERM and LCD-X.  It's my star soloist.  
 
But I equally enjoy inserting this all-star into a chorus, letting various amps contribute their own merits to the experience.  In those latter cases, I'm no longer straining whether I can still hear "the Hugo sound" but rather am comfortable knowing that it's doing its job contributing to the whole.

 

[Currawong]

 

   
Usually I listen with HD-800s, LCD-XC or UERMs. Sometimes the DITAs, JH13FP or LCD-X.
 
I think two things are going on with the Hugo and impressions: One is what we're used to. If you're used to an old-school PCM1704 DAC then the Hugo might sound bright in comparison. The other is that I think the output stage of the Hugo has a few quirks in its design making it not always play nicely with other components. The main one is that it outputs as much as 3V, which is way over the 2V max most components expect. So if a downstream component (eg: A pre-amp or power amp) doesn't have a volume control on the input, but after the gain stage, then the gain stage will be overloaded and the sound will distort.
 
By the way, I did: Mac > Centrance M8 (USB) > Hugo (optical) as well and it sounds good. I'm with you on the differences being minimal. I think though that USB is a tiny bit harsher sounding and we're all probably caring too much about the fine details. 

Actually, it will OP 5v RMS, but the pre-set setting is 3v RMS. 3v RMS is the OP I have been using for some time, it allows some gain for use with passive pre-amps. Also, all CD players and DAC's tend to produce more than 2v RMS, so I would be surprised if these levels will overload pre-amp inputs. My pre-amps always had the volume control first, as a input buffer always degraded transparency, so you could never in practice overload the inputs. Fortunately, you can set the volume to any level you like, and leave it that way. That said, to really enjoy Hugo, you need to remove the pre-amp and feed it directly into the power-amp.
 
That said, there is something else going on with Hugo - that is the output impedance or damping factor. Now the damping factor is very important with loudspeakers as it damps the motion of the cone, and reduces distortion from the loudspeaker. A loudspeaker load impedance varies with cone excursion, and this, coupled with the OP impedance of the amp, creates distortion.
 
A very long time ago, I had a power amp that had feedback around the loudspeaker terminals, so the loudspeaker inputs had a damping factor of 10,000. I then added very high quality resistors, so I could hear the effects of damping factor. For damping factors of 20 or smaller, the bass sounded thick and muddled, with a cozy warmth to the sound, but the bass tended to be one note, very difficult to follow the tune. With damping factors of 20 to 200, you got improvements in bass timing, and the one note quality disappeared. It sounded less fat and warm. Now above 200, it actually changed the tempo of the music, with it tending to sound faster. Bass was much more dynamic, and an awful lot tighter, with a leaner overall balance.
 
Now with Hugo, I designed the amp as if it was a power amp to feed loudspeakers. Indeed, I had a very enjoyable evening a few days ago, with Hugo (and only Hugo) driving Axjet horn loudspeakers outside in the garden! It was surprisingly loud... Anyhow, Hugo has a low 0.075 ohms OP impedance, much lower than regular headphone amps. Perhaps damping factor is important with headphones too? I will be doing some listening tests on this issue shortly.
 
Rob

 
Thanks for clarifying that. The 2V is something I read elsewhere as being common. There has been something of a trend with some amps, sometimes those that use current gain stages, to put the volume control as the I/V converter after the gain stage, giving the potential for it to be overloaded. That may be the problem in my main amp, I'd have to ask the designer.
 
Output impedance became a huge deal in the last year or two, with the increase in popularity of multiple balanced-armature IEMs that have non-flat impedance curves that range from 8 Ohms up to 90 Ohms through their frequency range. That made damping factor a big deal and had everyone demanding zero, or close to it, output impedance. Not to mention planar headphones, which are usually about 22-50 Ohms and low sensitivity. 
 
Those speakers look awesome. Now if only I had a livingroom that looked as good as the one on their web site....

 

[LFC_SL]

Purely from my observations on the Forum,Fostex TH900 seem to be a recurring favourite.

Can they be driven well straight from the Hugo without an amp?  Should they be less bright than the LCD-X?

There is plenty of volume play. I cannot comment on the second query as have yet to demo the LCD-X - not for lack of invitation mind. I probably will not demo the Audeze fazors until end Aug to spread out the annual leave requests.

 

[Currawong]

@ALRAINBOW I just found this on Stereo.net.au. I think it gets to what you were saying about the difference between the DS and Hugo:
 

  I had the opportunity to have a very quick listen to the PS Audio Direct Stream and compared it against the Chord QBD76 HDSD.
This was completed with Monitor Audio Pl100’s, Audio Research Amp, Nordost speaker cables etc. So quite a different system to the one I am using.
Given the differences in the room and system architecture this was a quick subject 30 min comparison.
 
I first listened to the PS Audio and was immediately impressed with soundstage and separation of instruments and voice, which was articulated with particular finesse and perfect timing.
I then plugged in the Chord – wow – it hit me in the face, strong grip, massive base and a forward presence that was like a slap in the nether regions. It took hold of the system and dominated it. This was impressive, but them moments later I realised something was wrong. I then swapped the DAC’s over at various stages, with several songs repeated for the purpose of the exercise.
 
The presence of the Chord overshadowed the nuances in the music, the instrumental detail was sometimes lost in the dominance of bass, and voices seemed to lose detail, breath and imaging compared to the PS Audio.
I did say not long ago that the Chord was the best DAC I had heard (in my system) so I was very surprised at the difference - was something  amiss? To be fair I would have to repeat the experiment at home and use both DACs with a set of full range speakers, with a system slightly warmer than the one I was listening too.
 
This appears to be a tale of two DACS, and could easily suit very different tastes, but more listening needs to be done before I reach any firm conclusion.
 
As a foot note - the Hugo does have the same signiture as the Chord QBD76 HDSD - so it appears to sound significantly different dependent on partnering equipment.

 
Original URL: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/64249-chord-hugo-gets-the-dac-crack-and-sack-treatment/#entry1126857

 

[kahkityoong]

   
If the AKG K812 and LCD-X sound bright straight into my Hugo, what would be a better choice of full-size headphones?

If you like the sonic character of the LCD-X the LCD-3 may be the ticket.

 

[ALRAINBOW]

I have no problem with either of these viewpoints - you hear what you hear and that's great, but I'd be interested to know what you heard that cost around the same money as the Hugo, ran from battery power and would easily fit in a backpack without the need to carry a power brick around. Personally, if DSD went no further as a format I wouldnt shed a single tear, but its what the Chord does with lower bitrate material that blows my tiny mind. One comparison I havent seen - and I would very much like to - is with Ayre's QB-9 DSD - Charlie Hansen copped an absolute pasting on CA for his openly disdainful attitude to DSD and he responded by giving them the best Redbook DAC he could build for the money : the fact that it handles DSD would seem to be secondary, and I suspect that was the case with the Hugo. 

I owned the qb9 before it was dsd. It sat on a shelf after I both something better. I then had it upgraded. For dsd playback , I then sold it. It's the same as the two other I mentioned before . It apparently is geared to PCM not dsd. It's painfully obvious when you listen to it . Regarding your choice of PCM and not caring about dsd. That is fools attitude as we all strive for better and we had better 50 years ago called analog weather vinyl or open reels. And the Hugo you claim as the best now is attaining some of that sound quality and this is why yo like it. Any dac that gets the sound of analog is better than all the ones that do not. .its that simple . So the dacs that have FPGA in them seem to have this analog sound of varieing degrees . In a direct comparisons over days of the 4 dacs I have setup temporary in my home it's easy to pick one out from the other . All 4 have that analog sound but it's easy to tell the ones that do dsd well. And dsd is not only the future but it's also all we have now as when companies remaster from the master tapes this is done to dsd not PCM get my point now.
Al

 

[ALRAINBOW]

I run the Hugo though the hdvd800 amp and I also use their balance cable.If you want 2 hear your hd800s and the Hugo at their best this is how 2 do it.you could listen 2 your music all and day and night like this, sounds awesome.

Info the same if using it at home. It takes off the treble peaks and levels it all out. . Great setup.
Al

 

[ALRAINBOW]

Purely from my observations on the Forum,Fostex TH900 seem to be a recurring favourite.

Frank I reccomended them and a bud has them. They are very good headphones . The are just below the hyper detailed hd800. Faking a little edge if them and overall less fatiging . As I am a detailed junkie they get very close to utopia and I think I really good choice with the Hugo .
Al

 

[ALRAINBOW]

@headfirocks, I've given you my recommendation but it would seem that you are only interested in 'serious' audiophile cans. I'm currently listening to a brighter source than the Hugo - the Oppo BDP-105D - to try to get a better idea of exactly what DSD really brings to the table for me, and I can confidently say that the LCD2.2 does a better job of handling the treble peaks that I cant quite handle from this source with the LCD-X or HD800, but most here consider these cans to be too dark for their liking. Oddly enough, one of the biggest complaint about the 2.2 was the 'recessed' treble - it would seem that there's no pleasing us.

For those wondering what I'm currently listening to, it's one of the samples from this site:

http://bluecoastrecords.com/store

Keith Greeninger and Dayan Kai - Looking For a Home

The acoustic guitar is fantastic as are the solo vocals but the louder chorus is ambushing me repeatedly atm and even the X1 cant completely negate that 'gah !' instinct. Time to go and do something else, methinks  

I agree the whole LCD line is darker then the fostex or hd800 or he6. But as well hear different it's very obvious that yours are very different then mine. Perhaps it's the loudness we listen at that adds to this view. I do not listen too loud if I do the hd800 are over whelming , my ears also will rig later from it. The funny thing is that everyone one I have had over or spent time with listened louder than me. And I do. It listen very low as some do .
Al

 

[ALRAINBOW]

@ALRAINBOW
 I just found this on Stereo.net.au. I think it gets to what you were saying about the difference between the DS and Hugo:


Original URL: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/64249-chord-hugo-gets-the-dac-crack-and-sack-treatment/#entry1126857

Now that review seemed very honest and even the Humen factor as he changed his mind after a while. Thanks for the link.
Al

 

[ubs28]

   
So, roundable response ahead, but to start, the only two cans currently in my stable are the HD800 and the LCD-X.  
 
I've detailed earlier how I believe the HD800 needs an amp for its character to be fully released / realized.  Straight out of the Hugo, the HD800 sounds musical, but thin.  With robust amplification, this headphone can achieve very very low and tight bass even at low volumes.  Very satisfying.
 
I actually very much like the X straight out of the Hugo, it was that pairing that made me fall for Hugo's sound.  I can see how the X's character can be perceived as bright, though.  It was a funner, faster sound evolution from the earlier LCD-2, which would then be one of the "darker" cans to demo with Hugo.
 
An old school but heralded can was the Senn HD600.  It's very musical, but again, one of the darker sounding headphones out there.  Still sold new, it's bargain priced, just give it a while to burn in.
 
That's pretty much all I got.  Others will need to chime in as I have no experience with Denons, Audio Technica, Hifiman.
 
So to wrap, I know I'm harping on this and am in conflict with Rob Watts, but IMO you'll need an amp.  Those latter two "darker" headphones won't be sufficiently driven by the Hugo.  Straight out of the Hugo, the LCD-2 and the Senn HD600 will get you that sound signature I think you're looking for, but you'll be far away from hearing the true dynamics of those cans.
 
One more thing... thinking about it, now that I'm a few months into Hugo ownership, I'm less fixated on the "holy crap I spent how much on this thing, it better be my end game one and only I'm going to hear every last iota of music in my collection".  
 
I enjoy Hugo's core purity of sound in some instances, 1:1 with my UERM and LCD-X.  It's my star soloist.  
 
But I equally enjoy inserting this all-star into a chorus, letting various amps contribute their own merits to the experience.  In those latter cases, I'm no longer straining whether I can still hear "the Hugo sound" but rather am comfortable knowing that it's doing its job contributing to the whole.

So the Chord Hugo can't run the HD800?