[514077]

​

Interesting chat with Rob last week, I said I had failed to hear a better source than my DAPs into Hugo 2, Hugo 1 and the TT I had for review. He was not surprised and said keep it simple , battery operated units like his phone, DAPs etc are a perfect source. I operate my Hugo 2/AK SE100 via my iPad as a controller, using AK's superb Connect software, and it can play anything from the DAP, usually FLACs, or streamed from my NAS drive. Also offline Tidal if I wished. So simplicity at source, but control much like a dedicated server.

I considered a server, looked at Auralic Aries models, but after our chat realised little benefit. Hope that just gives food for thought.

It does give comfort to those of us who like it simple. A straight, slightly cleaned up USB path from my computer works for me.

 

[JaZZ]

It does give comfort to those of us who like it simple. A straight, slightly cleaned up USB path from my computer works for me.

Subscribed – alternating with optical.

 

[514077]

Subscribed – alternating with optical.

My old horse drive doesn't have optical, I'm afraid.
But thanks for telling me about the ASIO treeview. I found the right native settings. Thanks again, and @111MilesToGo.

 

[musickid]

£2100 for the usb cable sounds about right considering hugo 2 is £1800. It's all good.... Isn't it......????ummm.

 

[Rob Watts]

Thank you so much for this clear statement.

If you permit, I would like to ask one more question, even though you might not bet the most appropriate person, @Rob Watts. I am looking for a way to convince Chord to get native DSD capability into Linux (servers and standalone system), cf. this post: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-982#post-14581748

I hope to have given sufficient reasoning and usage cases in that post, plus some references as to what little it might take. Nothing close to developing a Windows driver!

Me and probably many others would be awfully grateful if Linux could handle native DSD to Chord DACS some day. It works for XMOS-based devices and more, e.g. IIRC iFi‘s.

Thanks a lot in advance if you could help with that at Chord.

Chord are aware of the situation.

I can’t be 100% positive but I think I saw somewhere that said said DSD is inferior to PCM on Chord’s dacs.

It was just something I seem to recall and I cannot say with 100% certainty that it is true.

It's fairly simple - PCM is theoretically capable of recovering the original (bandwidth limited) analogue signal perfectly - with just the addition of dither noise - but this requires the DAC to do a lot of processing, hence the M scaler - but DSD is not capable of recovering the signal perfectly, as it is format limited.

The proof is in the pudding; DSD on sounds good (as best as you can get with DSD) on my DACs, but quality PCM on an M scaler DAC is simply in a very different performance league...

 

[GreenBow]

Interesting chat with Rob last week, I said I had failed to hear a better source than my DAPs into Hugo 2, Hugo 1 and the TT I had for review. He was not surprised and said keep it simple , battery operated units like his phone, DAPs etc are a perfect source. I operate my Hugo 2/AK SE100 via my iPad as a controller, using AK's superb Connect software, and it can play anything from the DAP, usually FLACs, or streamed from my NAS drive. Also offline Tidal if I wished. So simplicity at source, but control much like a dedicated server.

I considered a server, looked at Auralic Aries models, but after our chat realised little benefit. Hope that just gives food for thought.

Yes. Sounds good. Definitely food for thought. I think there was also recommendation and talk very recently about battery powered server type system too. I'll read back and have a look again for that.

It's actually a good idea for me to use a phone as a source. If I could find one with a replaceable battery that is. (A cheap phone that did everything like USB OTG, a good camera, and maybe the odd other checklist point.) Another file-source would preserve the battery in my recently new DAP, which I am not sure I can replace. Preserving my DAP battery life is one of my priorities. I guess I was thinking tablet for that, since the Fire HD tablet is a bargain. It has a good screen too. ..... Even a cheap Shanling or Hidizs DAP would do, but it has a tiny screen.

I was also thinking about something like the Novafidelty X14 as a static non battery powered unit. Generally so that I won't ever be with a flat battery powered file source. I planned if I bought an X14 to use optical out, to connect to DAC. I think the X14 would be fine, as long as the played does bit-perfect playback. Optical should mean a noise free file source. Shame the X14 cost £800 though. (Novafidelty X14 has: screen, HDD, amplifier, steamer, internet radio, probably phone/tablet controllable. Maybe £800 is not unreasonable. I wouldn't need its amplification or streamer though, which is why I stumble over this choice. I barely listen to the radio, at the moment either.)

 

[wswbd]

@111MilesToGo, thank you. great post.
Sad, it's clear to me Hugo 2 have problem with DSD at the moment..
I mean, yea.. it's support native DSD but see what a mess to setup its streaming properly.. and at the end it's mainly PC with set of drivers and USB port in Hugo 2 without galvanic isolation (read noisy). Seems mobile apps (Neutron, USB pro) can stream native DSD, but again some noise from radio phones is there... need to be tested.
Then, as I mentioned before, it has problem to reproduce DoP. I hear differance (not only me), while it must sound the same in any mode. Sound can not be different (native, DoP, D2P) period. But Hugo 2 have wrong (destorted) sound in DoP IMHO. You can easly hear it. So can't be used.
At the end remains D2P, i can confirm its sound good (as good as we can accept for Hugo 2.. will talk later about this), but its not bit perfect as we know.

Great post, could you upload the latest
foo_input_sacd.fb2k-component
I'm having great difficulty finding it.

Thanks

 

[wswbd]

Since this post of mine ...


... triggered the DSD / DoP / D2P discussion yesterday, I should like to comment a bit more both on DSD and foobar2000 (@UELong).

Okay, sorry already now, this is going to be long...

And my original question as to Linux / MPD / flaw with DSD256 as DoP still is open for feedback!

Up-front, a disclaimer: Many comrades on this forum do probably know a LOT more than I do. Nevertheless, I do see so many things on the web which are a bit wrong or even outright incorrect, So I would like to explain as far as my knowledge goes. No warranty implied. And please, I DO like to receive any feedback if I am wrong in what I am writing, or if there is anything that could be explained or done (foobar2000 settings) better!


First, on PCM versus DSD, and on native DSD versus DoP (DSD over PCM) versus D2P (DSD to PCM):

PCM and DSD are two distinctly different methods for digitizing analog audio. In principle, there should be no (actually, only one) transition from DSD to PCM in a recording / mixing / mastering chain, since the HF (increasing far above 20kHz) noise present in DSD should not come down anywhere near the audible region. DSD has its merits since it was the most successful format when searching for something better than the 16/44.1 Redbook-type CD format. DSD is most useful for one-step digitization and storage, where "storage" means an SACD or a file on hard disk; it does not lend itself directly to mixing or equalization etc.

I think the jury is still out on what digitization process gives the most truthful and musical A-to-D conversion, PCM or DSD. Maybe the jury will be out forever... Remember, when comparing PCM and DSD versions of the same commercial album, you will most probably be listening to two different masters done on different devices / at different times / maybe even by different engineers. Just look at Miles Davis' Kind of Blue...

On DSD / DoP / D2P:

• The original USB audio specifications did provide only for PCM to be transported to the USB output port of a computer. There is a "raw" USB data spec which can be "abused" to transport native DSD. However, a Mac AFAIK does output only PCM (no driver needed, it's in the OS); a Linux system always does PCM (driverless, it's in the Kernel) and native DSD for some receiving devices when using device-dependent "quirks" in the Kernel; Windows as an OS does PCM, and it can do everything when using device-specific drivers provided by the device manufacturer.
• So Mac and Linux are the reason why DoP was invented. DoP is bit-identical to the original DSD bitstream, it just wraps it in 24-bit (or 32) PCM-like chunks with 16 bits being the DSD bitstream plus additional header bits to tell the receiving device that this PCM-type stream in fact is DSD.
• Thus, I think it should be generally accepted that - based on first principles - native DSD and DoP are bit-identical and thus should have exactly the same sound quality. Take a look at Roon, which calls DoP "bit-perfect". Identical sound quality? Well, YES, unless the additional overhead causes heavier computer load, or the audio application on the computer has programming flaws. I am suspecting that the latter holds for MPD (Music Player Daemon) on Linux, cf. my original post.
• Finally, D2P is a NOT bit-perfect conversion from DSD to PCM. Look at Roon, which calls D2P only "high quality" instead of "bit-perfect".

I consider this paper on DoP to be a good reference: https://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.W-Kj0zEiGM9.


Second, on foobar2000 and DSD replay:







There is a good cookbook for foobar2000 on the web: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/. It emphasizes DSD replay (current version) in Part 2. I learned most of what I know from that website and from looking at what Roon does.

First, regarding drivers for Hugo 2 under Windows:

1. WASAPI can do PCM and DoP (and of course the undesirable D2P), which is fine since DoP in principle gives the same SQ as native DSD.
2. The ASIO driver can do all, PCM, native DSD, DoP ( and of course D2P).

Second, regarding the foobar2000 capabilities:

1. One should use the latest foo_input_sacd.fb2k-component plugin (version 1.1.0 with foobar2000 version 1.4). Other plugins are outdated, in particular the foo_dsd_asio plugin. Hugo 2 is compatible with the new foo_input_sacd.fb2k-component.
2. This plugin - at least that is what I understand, am I mistaken? - extracts the DSD data from the audio file and hands them over to foobar2000 as DoP by adding the appropriate header bits. Thus, Mode 1 of diyaudioheaven is bit-perfect output of DSD audio from foobar2000 to Hugo 2 as DoP, although the author should have repeated the word "DoP" in the headline for Mode 1.
3. If you want foobar2000 to output native DSD to Hugo 2, one needs to install another component, the dsd_transcoder. It (version 1.0.10) is contained in the same package as the latest foo_input_sacd. This thing strips the DoP stream received from foo_input_sacd of the header bits, recovering the original DSD bitstream. Thus, Mode 2 of diyaudioheaven is called "Bitperfect outputting native DSD through DSDTranscoder".
4. That's all there is with respect to foobar2000 (v 1.4) components that need to be installed. You then have to set the appropriate properties for these components, please refer to the diyaudioheaven cookbook.
5. Now's the time to play music from DSD files... This is the point where foobar2000 becomes a real nuisance, since one has to switch outputs manually all the time. Select File > Preferences > Output, or - better! - put the Output Switcher onto the GUI bars (only with foobar2000 v 1.4 onwards). With the components installed as above, this is what I select for the various modes:

• PCM is achieved via "ASIO : ASIO Chord 1.05" or "WASAPI (event) : Digital output (Chord Async 44.1kHz-768kHz)"
• DoP is achieved via "DSD : ASIO : ASIO Chord 1.05" or "DSD : WASAPI (event) : Digital output (Chord Async 44.1kHz-768kHz)"
• Native DSD is achieved via "DSD : ASIO : DSD Trancoder (DoP/Native)"

I attach a screenshot from my foobar2000:

And here are some preference settings of mine:

Please, if there is anything wrong with my settings, let me know!

Unfortunately, I don't know of any means under Windows to sniff at the USB data stream and confirm what it is wrt bit depth, bit rate etc. Under Linux, I know how to do that. Thus, we can only look at the indicator lights of Hugo 2.


Sorry for being so long and maybe too detailed. Sorry for boring most of you since you know so much more than I do.

@UELong, I hope these foobar2000 recipes will help you.

----------

Great post, could you upload the latest
foo_input_sacd.fb2k-component
I'm having great difficulty finding it.

Thanks

 

[111MilesToGo]

Great post, could you upload the latest
foo_input_sacd.fb2k-component
I'm having great difficulty finding it.

Thanks

Thank you for your kind words. To get the latest software, please head over to
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/
and take a look at Part 2, new SACD plugin.

 

[AndrewH13]

Yes. Sounds good. Definitely food for thought. I think there was also recommendation and talk very recently about battery powered server type system too. I'll read back and have a look again for that.

It's actually a good idea for me to use a phone as a source. If I could find one with a replaceable battery that is. (A cheap phone that did everything like USB OTG, a good camera, and maybe the odd other checklist point.) Another file-source would preserve the battery in my recently new DAP, which I am not sure I can replace. Preserving my DAP battery life is one of my priorities. I guess I was thinking tablet for that, since the Fire HD tablet is a bargain. It has a good screen too. ..... Even a cheap Shanling or Hidizs DAP would do, but it has a tiny screen.

I was also thinking about something like the Novafidelty X14 as a static non battery powered unit. Generally so that I won't ever be with a flat battery powered file source. I planned if I bought an X14 to use optical out, to connect to DAC. I think the X14 would be fine, as long as the played does bit-perfect playback. Optical should mean a noise free file source. Shame the X14 cost £800 though. (Novafidelty X14 has: screen, HDD, amplifier, steamer, internet radio, probably phone/tablet controllable. Maybe £800 is not unreasonable. I wouldn't need its amplification or streamer though, which is why I stumble over this choice. I barely listen to the radio, at the moment either.)

My first DAP, which I still bind by band to Hugo’s, had a slip off back and took common Samsung phone batteries so I bought a few spares. Amazing design eh? iBasso DX90, worked well as a transport, and never left dead battery.

 

[rcoleman1]

​

Interesting chat with Rob last week, I said I had failed to hear a better source than my DAPs into Hugo 2, Hugo 1 and the TT I had for review. He was not surprised and said keep it simple , battery operated units like his phone, DAPs etc are a perfect source. I operate my Hugo 2/AK SE100 via my iPad as a controller, using AK's superb Connect software, and it can play anything from the DAP, usually FLACs, or streamed from my NAS drive. Also offline Tidal if I wished. So simplicity at source, but control much like a dedicated server.

I considered a server, looked at Auralic Aries models, but after our chat realised little benefit. Hope that just gives food for thought.

Great. So it's not my imagination that I think my Sony NW-WM1Z is an excellent source for my Hugo 2. Thanks Rob.

 

[Amberlamps]

Chord are aware of the situation.



It's fairly simple - PCM is theoretically capable of recovering the original (bandwidth limited) analogue signal perfectly - with just the addition of dither noise - but this requires the DAC to do a lot of processing, hence the M scaler - but DSD is not capable of recovering the signal perfectly, as it is format limited.

The proof is in the pudding; DSD on sounds good (as best as you can get with DSD) on my DACs, but quality PCM on an M scaler DAC is simply in a very different performance league...

I knew I saw it somewhere on the forums, but it was possibly last year that I read it and I couldn’t be 100% regarding all the in’s and outs of it.

Rob, the proof is in the pudding and your pudding sounds excellent.

“Rob do it again, Rob do it again, Rob do it again, “if you don’t eat your meat, you can’t have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat yer meat”.

 

[GreenBow]

Great. So it's not my imagination that I think my Sony NW-WM1Z is an excellent source for my Hugo 2. Thanks Rob.

I also love my ZX300 either for playing by itself, or as a file source.

My first DAP, which I still bind by band to Hugo’s, had a slip off back and took common Samsung phone batteries so I bought a few spares. Amazing design eh? iBasso DX90, worked well as a transport, and never left dead battery.

The (iBasso DX90) was a great find; nice. I might get one. .. Initially I wanted a good DAP that I could pair occasionally with a DAC. However I found I pair my Sony ZX300 with DACs, almost as much as I use it as a DAP.

(Whereas I would prefer to preserve the DAP battery, for DAP use only. I bought the ZX300 because it's reported to have great sound, and it has great battery life. What HiFi only gave it four stars, but I love it. https://www.whathifi.com/sony/nw-zx300/review I bought it for 25% off the RRP of £600 too. I think it's worth looking after. It does sound great too, after quite a bit of running in. It was rough and a bit rich sounding at first, but now after fifty hours it's excellent for my requirement. It's reported to need 200 hours to run in fully, by both users and Sony.)

I need another file source for when I am zonking out in a chair with Chord DAC and headphones. I like the idea of replaceable batteries as you don't have to chuck the gadget away once the battery dies. That iBasso DX90, can take up to 2TB cards too - that's incredible! ... I could use it as a desktop source for Chord DAC, amp, and speakers, when my PC is not on. (It might get a lot of use.) I did think more in line of a permanent device for that. Partly so there is no waiting to charge a device, but I bet there is a charge and play solution. Partly also for a sizable screen.

EDIT: after some googling I found out, that the iBasso Dx90 is a bit-perfect player. (They call it bit-for-bit perfect. Max 192KHz 24-bit.)

 

[GreenBow]

I found an interesting point in the HiFi News review of the Qutest. They were talking about the filters. They suggested using the green filter because it cuts out noise above 20Khz caused by high res music. ..... Their precise words are, "The HF roll-off filters have a curtailed response above 20KHz to help suppress noise and distortion from hi-res digital recordings that suffer it."

I always used either white - neutral, or green - incisive neutral with HF roll off. I think I might keep to green in future.

 

[boxerlc]

Does anybody know if the output of the HUGO 2 can be shorted to ground?

The reason I ask this question is there some amps support multiple input channels. When a channel is not enabled the signal input wire will be shorted to the ground.

If I have multiple DACs, including HUGO 2, connected to different channels and I want to do switching between DACs, when I switch to a different DAC other than HUGO 2 the HUGO 2 output will be shorted to ground. Will this cause any damage to the HUGO 2?


Thank you!