Chord Electronics - Hugo 2 - The Official Thread
Jul 19, 2017 at 5:19 AM Post #6,032 of 22,475
To me the change is not small - so I was disappointed that a lot of posters were initially saying that they could not hear much of a change. Maybe I am a hyper-sensitive listener - or more likely the change is much more apparent when you are not doing AB tests, but are listening long term to music, and your brain has learnt about the better accuracy that Hugo 2 offers. But it's good to hear posters starting to report the change that I hear.

Initially I had a lot of difficulty hearing much difference, if any, between the filters. My expectation was for a tonal change, but when I listened more for a timing change then I started to notice differences with the filters. The best way I could describe it is the sound widened from the red filter to white. A clarity was perceived and, as you say, things snapped more in to focus yet felt more spacious. I still thought it was subtle, but before the tour unit left I could hear it on a consistent basis, as opposed to not hearing much of anything initially. What was also interesting was the amount of difference between filters very much depended on the track I was listening to.

And I agree, quick a/b comparisons aren't helpful to hearing these changes. I found it best to listen to a track and then about half way through switch filters. To me that's where I noticed the change the easiest.
 
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Jul 19, 2017 at 6:24 AM Post #6,033 of 22,475
Initially I had a lot of difficulty hearing much difference, if any, between the filters. My expectation was for a tonal change, but when I listened more for a timing change then I started to notice differences with the filters. The best way I could describe it is the sound widened from the red filter to white. A clarity was perceived and, as you say, things snapped more in to focus yet felt more spacious. I still thought it was subtle, but before the tour unit left I could hear it on a consistent basis, as opposed to not hearing much of anything initially. What was also interesting was the amount of difference between filters very much depended on the track I was listening to.

And I agree, quick a/b comparisons aren't helpful to hearing these changes. I found it best to listen to a track and then about half way through switch filters. To me that's where I noticed the change the easiest.

My thoughts exactly.

I also find filters influence amp pairings. White did not work so well with my WA6, but orange complimented the smoothness you get with a tube amp very well. On the other hand my solid state Cavalli keeps up with the White filter very well and mantains all the detail. These differences have become more apparent as I listed to the H2 and I find myself enjoying the flexibility.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 6:34 AM Post #6,034 of 22,475
When I get my tour ch2 going to focus on no filters and cross feed. That's how I like my ch1 and TT. I got noble encore and gave my 846 to the mrs. The idea of folks stating filter for this filter for that, I like this and I like that, I hoped I got away from. I get flexibility, don't want to rain on any parade, but give me a dac, and amp, an iem, a hp, and don't ask me to play with filters. Give it to me straight, the best you got, keep it simple. I hope chord will not expand this filter thing for personalization outside the line, I mean bass boost, gain settings, other preset gizmos are for kids that can't handle the truth of the music, imo.
Now please my rant is done, maybe I'll feel different once I get this thang, I doubt it tho.
I know we will have a thousand pages of filter talk tho, and maybe allowing preferences to supersede was in fact the goal.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 6:41 AM Post #6,035 of 22,475
Initially I had a lot of difficulty hearing much difference, if any, between the filters. My expectation was for a tonal change, but when I listened more for a timing change then I started to notice differences with the filters. The best way I could describe it is the sound widened from the red filter to white. A clarity was perceived and, as you say, things snapped more in to focus yet felt more spacious. I still thought it was subtle, but before the tour unit left I could hear it on a consistent basis, as opposed to not hearing much of anything initially. What was also interesting was the amount of difference between filters very much depended on the track I was listening to.

And I agree, quick a/b comparisons aren't helpful to hearing these changes. I found it best to listen to a track and then about half way through switch filters. To me that's where I noticed the change the easiest.
I noticed a prominent change while listening to a Dick Hymon solo piano track. I especially noticed a change in the bass tone, or perhaps stage width. Problem was that I was not sure where I was with the filter settings to know which one I was using. Sometimes when I'm trying to test, my son walks by, and I quickly shout 'colour?' Then I'm back on track. As I said before, the 'for lack of a better name,' Mojo settings give me a slight feeling of roughness to rock or other common music. So, I probably can ignore those filters. I thought there was a small cleaning up of the harshness of a clarinet passage I was enjoying when I went from white to green, on a hi-res track. I think green will be the setting I'll settle on in the end. But, my impressions are uncertain as of yet. FWIW
 
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Jul 19, 2017 at 6:52 AM Post #6,036 of 22,475
[...]

Now although the technical difference is very small, to me the sound quality difference is very much not small. And it does sound very different to a normal WTA filter - you do not get the usual changes in sound quality, but you can perceive the starting and stopping of notes more easily - and because it's like snapping everything into focus, it sounds sharper and more incisive. When you can't hear the starting and stopping of notes, things sound soft and warm. Indeed, poor timing reconstruction is another way where you can soften up the sound - but again it's unnatural, as everything sounds soft, even sharp percussive effects that in real life sound sharp and fast.

To me the change is not small - so I was disappointed that a lot of posters were initially saying that they could not hear much of a change. Maybe I am a hyper-sensitive listener - or more likely the change is much more apparent when you are not doing AB tests, but are listening long term to music, and your brain has learnt about the better accuracy that Hugo 2 offers. But it's good to hear posters starting to report the change that I hear.


Happy listening, Rob
Amazing post, thank you. I can hear the differences between different filter settings quite easily. Interestingly, my hearing is not the very best in terms of frequency response - still I am very picky and sensitive with music reproduction. There are definitively many unknown aspects in hearing and subsequent neural processing.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 7:34 AM Post #6,037 of 22,475
Sure Mojo is more mid-centric, in that it has a softer or fuller bass; and this is down to the use of a single coupling capacitor (digital DC servos would be too expensive to implement for Mojo). Electrolytic capacitors add an unnatural bloom to the sound, which can sound superficially attractive. I have talked before about yin and yang with audio - the battle between refinement and on the other hand transparency. More refinement equates to a warmer presentation; more transparency gives a much brighter presentation. Unfortunately, people are extremely sensitive to this balance; and when you employ listening tests in product development it's crucial that very sensitive and accurate listening is used, as a superficial improvement may just be down to better balance (one distortion balancing another). So I have to consciously be extremely careful when using listening tests, because you can never be 100% sure; that's why a null listening test (when one can hear no difference) is extremely valuable.

I want to give you an idea of the tricks that are available. I talked about capacitors - an electrolytic will impart a softness to the sound (tantalum caps are better - more accurate - and I use that in Mojo), and this is due to dielectric absorption effects, and straight forward low frequency distortion from the capacitor. What happens is a low frequency error is created, and the brain detects this error, and the bass then sounds soft and fuller. Removing the capacitor will make a much tighter, leaner bass; also it will be faster, with better pitch definition. But superficially one just notices the lack of bloom due to the absence of the low frequency error.

Another source of low frequency errors are due to the reference circuitry. Now actually a DAC is simply a reference voltage where the output is digital data modifying the reference voltage. That's simply how a DAC works. The reference voltage is buried inside the DAC chip, but it is crucial to performance - what happens is the DAC draws current from the reference voltage, and this current subtly modulates the voltage directly - and this changes the gain of the system. This is normally overcome by adding a decoupling capacitor; but then what happens is the OP will amplitude modulate depending on the music envelope - and this creates another set of LF distortions, again giving the sense of body or bloom. Unfortunately, this set of AM distortions are not measurable with conventional measurements, and so developers and chip DAC designers aren't aware of the consequences; but it does provide an opportunity for a developer to tweak the sound by changing the decoupling. This is one reason why I talk about my discrete reference circuitry, as I can eliminate this issue. The third trick one can use is straight forward low frequency second harmonic distortion, and I see lots of developers using this to artificially fatten up the sound.

So given that Hugo 2 has a digital DC servo, so no coupling capacitors in the signal path, and the reference voltage is rock solid with zero music envelope modulation, and there is zero low frequency distortion, in a normal DAC this would make it sound impossibly bright and lean - even if the bass is extremely tight and tuneful - the yin-yang balance would be wrong. So why would a conventional DAC sound un-balanced with this approach?

In three words - noise floor modulation. This, where the noise floor pumps up and down with signal - is the principal problem. All other DAC's suffer from measurable noise floor modulation, and this makes things sound hard and bright (there are other errors that do this too). By eliminating the tricks that will add an artificial bloom to the sound means I have to work very much harder to eliminate this problem; and this is an issue that has taken me 30 years to resolve, so it is not easy to eliminate, as there are myriad sources of these errors within a DAC.

Moving on to the filter selection. Now providing the option of adjustable filters very much goes against my purist design philosophy; the 256 FS filter (white or green) is the technically more accurate filter, in that the reconstruction of transient timing is more accurate to the original analogue signal in the ADC, and in the past I would have simply given that. But I included the option for two reasons; firstly as it provides a simple way of getting yin-yang balance, even if we are using an inaccuracy to enable that, and that's OK so long as people are aware of that fact. When you get better headphones, then ideally the incisive filter options will be the best. The second reason was to demonstrate that actually very subtle technical differences can have a profound subjective effect. The technical difference between the 256 FS filter and 16 FS is very subtle; both options employ digital filtering up to 2048 FS, but the 16 FS option is just IIR filters (analogue type filter) and the 256 FS replaces the 16>256 IIR filter with a WTA filter (an FIR filter) which will re-construct the timing much more accurately. But the difference technically is very small. Note that conventional chip DAC's employ no filtering whatsoever above 8 FS or 16 FS (that's 384 kHz and 768 kHz max respectively).

Now although the technical difference is very small, to me the sound quality difference is very much not small. And it does sound very different to a normal WTA filter - you do not get the usual changes in sound quality, but you can perceive the starting and stopping of notes more easily - and because it's like snapping everything into focus, it sounds sharper and more incisive. When you can't hear the starting and stopping of notes, things sound soft and warm. Indeed, poor timing reconstruction is another way where you can soften up the sound - but again it's unnatural, as everything sounds soft, even sharp percussive effects that in real life sound sharp and fast.

To me the change is not small - so I was disappointed that a lot of posters were initially saying that they could not hear much of a change. Maybe I am a hyper-sensitive listener - or more likely the change is much more apparent when you are not doing AB tests, but are listening long term to music, and your brain has learnt about the better accuracy that Hugo 2 offers. But it's good to hear posters starting to report the change that I hear.

Just to wrap up - I have talked a lot about yin-yang balance, and how distortions are used to balance other distortions. But because Hugo 2 is very different to other DAC's, and distortions or errors are fundamentally lower, the downside is that headphones deficiencies will be thrown into relief; transducers that were before too bright may actually become acceptable; and conversely transducers that had "nice" or optimizing errors become unacceptable - it becomes very much easier to hear problems. So bear in mind that your headphone collection abilities will change in sometimes surprising ways.

Happy listening, Rob

Fascinating infos – thanks a lot, Rob! I can see John tearing his hair about your publishing of secret recipes once again.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 8:54 AM Post #6,038 of 22,475
this is really nice.
I bought one at the sale price. It is just large enough for a Hugo 2, music transport, IEMs, plus a few other items.
Obviously will have to think again, once the 2Go module is released.
It is a pity that they don't sell them in the US.
20170719_144115.jpg Gusti_bag.jpg
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM Post #6,040 of 22,475
Well after months of playing the waiting game, rush home today from work to sign for delivery of an H2, shipped from audio46.com. It's here!! I've been having such terrible luck recently with this expensive hobby of mine. Seems I keep forking over money for things that don't get screened by QC before packaging and shipping to customer. It is very discouraging to say the least...wait for months and fork out a large sum of money (for me) only to find FOD left behind inside Hugo case. First thing I did when I opened box was to give it the old "rattle test." "That doesn't sound right," I thought. I can't make out exactly what it is, because I only was able to catch a quick glimpse through the looking glass. But it is small, shiny and loose...and I am not happy.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 1:59 PM Post #6,041 of 22,475
Well after months of playing the waiting game, rush home today from work to sign for delivery of an H2, shipped from audio46.com. It's here!! I've been having such terrible luck recently with this expensive hobby of mine. Seems I keep forking over money for things that don't get screened by QC before packaging and shipping to customer. It is very discouraging to say the least...wait for months and fork out a large sum of money (for me) only to find FOD left behind inside Hugo case. First thing I did when I opened box was to give it the old "rattle test." "That doesn't sound right," I thought. I can't make out exactly what it is, because I only was able to catch a quick glimpse through the looking glass. But it is small, shiny and loose...and I am not happy.

What do you mean? All units are supposed to "rattle" when you shake them; as far as I'm aware it's part of the design. Can you take a photo of the looking glass? I'm not saying it's impossible to have a FOD inside but unlikely.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 2:05 PM Post #6,042 of 22,475
What do you mean? All units are supposed to "rattle" when you shake them; as far as I'm aware it's part of the design. Can you take a photo of the looking glass? I'm not saying it's impossible to have a FOD inside but unlikely.

It's not the typical "rattle" that we are accustomed to with the roller-ball design. There is something loose and rattling around in the case. I saw it pass by the viewing screen, but can't for the life of me get it to back in vicinity of looking glass and I don't want to keep shaking it around...will only cause damage to internals.
 
Jul 19, 2017 at 2:12 PM Post #6,043 of 22,475
Initially I had a lot of difficulty hearing much difference, if any, between the filters. My expectation was for a tonal change, but when I listened more for a timing change then I started to notice differences with the filters. The best way I could describe it is the sound widened from the red filter to white. A clarity was perceived and, as you say, things snapped more in to focus yet felt more spacious. I still thought it was subtle, but before the tour unit left I could hear it on a consistent basis, as opposed to not hearing much of anything initially. What was also interesting was the amount of difference between filters very much depended on the track I was listening to.

And I agree, quick a/b comparisons aren't helpful to hearing these changes. I found it best to listen to a track and then about half way through switch filters. To me that's where I noticed the change the easiest.

The exact same for me, I listened for a tonal change based on filters i had heard on a previous other non Chord DAC, but could hear that i preferred the incisive filter but could not apprehend why, but now hear the difference. I liked Rob's comment re Bass Bloom as I always have had problem with that with my speakers, which the Hugo 1 fixed, and the Hugo 2 also does but now with firmer/more bass. Love it!
 
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Jul 19, 2017 at 2:31 PM Post #6,044 of 22,475
It's not the typical "rattle" that we are accustomed to with the roller-ball design. There is something loose and rattling around in the case. I saw it pass by the viewing screen, but can't for the life of me get it to back in vicinity of looking glass and I don't want to keep shaking it around...will only cause damage to internals.

That is bad luck indeed but don't be tempted to open it up.

Are you tempted to see if it works?

BTW, does the loose bit sound big enough to be a stray spanner or soldering iron? :deadhorse:
 

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