Apr 15, 2025 at 9:31 AM Post #26,896 of 27,054
Debussy's once said ”Music is the space between the notes“ and in my view there is some truth in the quote; it certainly highlights the fact that transients are essential, for without transients there would be no spaces between the notes.

But the timing of transients is absolutely vital from the psychoacoustic point of view as the perception of pitch, timbre, tempo and rhythm, instruments as separate entities and the location of instruments in 3D space depends totally on the timing of transients.

And digital audio most severe and enormous problem is the reconstruction of the timing of transients, when sampled data gets converted back to a continuous waveform. And that conversion back to a continuous waveform is when we get the errors in the timing of transients, with transient timing constantly shifting backwards and forwards - and these timing errors present a huge problem for the brain, so that we can't perceive the music properly. Now I have been aware of this issue since the early 1980's, as reading about how important the timing of transients was from psychoacoustic text books, and studying the mathematics behind sampling theory - it was clear that reproducing digital audio had major and fundamental issues.

Indeed, as time has gone by, and I have listened to more complex and capable WTA interpolation filters, I have found that the sensitivity of perception to the tinniest timing error is enormous. With the Quartet development, I have constantly been surprised at essentially miniscule timing errors can have huge perceptual impacts.

And it's the difference between music sounding like real instruments playing in a real space to some garbled, muddled and pale imitation of a musical event.

Going back to your question, yes many vinyl albums are today cut using Dave, but I am not aware of a list. Some years back someone estimated that 70% of the albums cut today in the UK used Dave, and that number has increased as more studios have bought Dave since.
Interesting, and Debussy actually quoted Mozart who said: something like "Musik ist die Stille zwischen den Noten."Music is the silence between the notes."
Ironically it seems that the BIG problem with digital audio is that it chops up the flow of time by introducing artficial timing gaps as a by-product of too low sampling rates and too few bits employed .What's your take on that assumption? Or have I misunderstood things? Why stop at 32 bits /768KHZ? Would not 64/1024 or even higher rates capture timing with fewer gaps ? Image editing tools like Photoshop and others run at 64 bits since quite a while.
PS i hope you meant tiniest timing error, not "tinnitus".
Cheers CC.
 
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Apr 15, 2025 at 3:32 PM Post #26,897 of 27,054
Interesting, and Debussy actually quoted Mozart who said: something like "Musik ist die Stille zwischen den Noten."Music is the silence between the notes."
Ironically it seems that the BIG problem with digital audio is that it chops up the flow of time by introducing artficial timing gaps as a by-product of too low sampling rates and too few bits employed .What's your take on that assumption? Or have I misunderstood things? Why stop at 32 bits /768KHZ? Would not 64/1024 or even higher rates capture timing with fewer gaps ? Image editing tools like Photoshop and others run at 64 bits since quite a while.
PS i hope you meant tiniest timining error, not "tinnitus".
Cheers CC.
Davina is sampling audio at 104.25MHz.
 
Apr 18, 2025 at 3:08 AM Post #26,899 of 27,054
Interesting, and Debussy actually quoted Mozart who said: something like "Musik ist die Stille zwischen den Noten."Music is the silence between the notes."
Ironically it seems that the BIG problem with digital audio is that it chops up the flow of time by introducing artficial timing gaps as a by-product of too low sampling rates and too few bits employed .What's your take on that assumption? Or have I misunderstood things? Why stop at 32 bits /768KHZ? Would not 64/1024 or even higher rates capture timing with fewer gaps ? Image editing tools like Photoshop and others run at 64 bits since quite a while.
PS i hope you meant tiniest timining error, not "tinnitus".
Cheers CC.
Oops, corrected my spelling. I suspect a Freudian slip here, as I have been suffering badly with a chest infection, and the subsequently the tiniest of tinnitus! My doctor gave me antibiotics yesterday, and am feeling a great deal better today.

I had known about the quote "music is the silence between the notes" but couldn't remember which composer said it - so I googled it - and to my surprise it came back with Debussy, which wasn't my recollection - Mozart sounds more likely.

So the best sample rate and bit depth for ideal sound quality, would of course be 2048 FS at 68 bits, which is where the DACs end up with. But it's actually a lot more complex, as different things are affecting the sound at different sample rates. Moreover, studios won't go above 192/32b, so this is the practical limit. And although I have a lot of subjective evidence that 2048/68b is necessary internally within the DAC, that doesn't mean that this should be the ideal storage data rate in terms of bit depth and sample rate. And truth be told, I don't know what that number should be - it's something I have plans to investigate with as it's crucial for the pro ADC interface. This will be done by creating a module that reconstructs to 2048FS then decimates it down to the input sample rate and an appropriate bit depth. Once we get a system where the reconstruction/decimation module is inaudible compared to pass through, then that will give a good idea to the perfect recording standard.

Happy listening, Rob
 
Apr 18, 2025 at 7:53 AM Post #26,901 of 27,054
Oops, corrected my spelling. I suspect a Freudian slip here, as I have been suffering badly with a chest infection, and the subsequently the tiniest of tinnitus! My doctor gave me antibiotics yesterday, and am feeling a great deal better today.

I had known about the quote "music is the silence between the notes" but couldn't remember which composer said it - so I googled it - and to my surprise it came back with Debussy, which wasn't my recollection - Mozart sounds more likely.

So the best sample rate and bit depth for ideal sound quality, would of course be 2048 FS at 68 bits, which is where the DACs end up with. But it's actually a lot more complex, as different things are affecting the sound at different sample rates. Moreover, studios won't go above 192/32b, so this is the practical limit. And although I have a lot of subjective evidence that 2048/68b is necessary internally within the DAC, that doesn't mean that this should be the ideal storage data rate in terms of bit depth and sample rate. And truth be told, I don't know what that number should be - it's something I have plans to investigate with as it's crucial for the pro ADC interface. This will be done by creating a module that reconstructs to 2048FS then decimates it down to the input sample rate and an appropriate bit depth. Once we get a system where the reconstruction/decimation module is inaudible compared to pass through, then that will give a good idea to the perfect recording standard.

Happy listening, Rob
Thanks for your response Rob.Regarding studios and 192 max rate it applies to most ,but not all.
I attended DXD sessions ,ie 358khz rate, already over ten years ago. Morten Lindberg of 2L was one of the first labels I know of to record at DXD rate and Jared Sacks of Channel Classics started doing it a few years later as well.
But yes they are still exceptions.
I doubt there will be any interest at all, for Davina outside seriously SQ conscious Boutiqe Labels like those two?
Within the major classical music recording industry few record above 24/96 to this day.
And in the popular genres, synthetic mass music studios SQ is not really a concern anyway is it?
You still can't get more than a pint out of a pint bottle can you?
Cheers and get well soon CC
 
Apr 18, 2025 at 8:36 AM Post #26,903 of 27,054
does adding a scaler to dave give a big boost to quality or is dave already good?
It heavily depends on your setup, source, mains and what youre listening to.

With all conditions right you get 'reality' and more lifelike sound. But Dave is stellar by itself allbeit a little abstract sounding vs with HMS.

To my ears in a RF dirty electrical environment and/or a bad digital recording HMS can make Dave even sound worse vs Dave alone.
 
Apr 18, 2025 at 1:59 PM Post #26,904 of 27,054
My doctor gave me antibiotics yesterday, and am feeling a great deal better today.

Hope you recover quickly.

When I was prescribed antibiotics in November, they had the side effect of increased ear wax, leading to partial deafness and tinnitus.
Luckily it was temporary, but it did mean that listening to music was pointless for a while.
 
Apr 30, 2025 at 2:49 PM Post #26,905 of 27,054
Recently sold a Holo May KTE because I lacked space for it in my new location. Have been using my Hugo 2 as a DAC to my Armageddon, does a decent job but cant help but feel I am missing that special sauce of the May. The DAVE has always interested me due to its quirky design and reputation and I cant help but wonder how great the step up from a Hugo 2 would be for headphone-only use.
 
Apr 30, 2025 at 3:21 PM Post #26,906 of 27,054
Recently sold a Holo May KTE because I lacked space for it in my new location. Have been using my Hugo 2 as a DAC to my Armageddon, does a decent job but cant help but feel I am missing that special sauce of the May. The DAVE has always interested me due to its quirky design and reputation and I cant help but wonder how great the step up from a Hugo 2 would be for headphone-only use.
the difference is significant
 
Apr 30, 2025 at 3:22 PM Post #26,907 of 27,054
I cant help but wonder how great the step up from a Hugo 2 would be for headphone-only use.
You surely should audition one. This thread is packed with opinions and tips to get the best out of it so i dont have to explain. If your headphones is not hard to drive id say to try connect direct to it.
 
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Apr 30, 2025 at 4:18 PM Post #26,908 of 27,054
Recently sold a Holo May KTE because I lacked space for it in my new location. Have been using my Hugo 2 as a DAC to my Armageddon, does a decent job but cant help but feel I am missing that special sauce of the May. The DAVE has always interested me due to its quirky design and reputation and I cant help but wonder how great the step up from a Hugo 2 would be for headphone-only use.
If you think the Hugo 2 is "lacking something" compared with the May, DAVE won't give you that. There's plenty of people who've chosen May instead of DAVE.
 
Apr 30, 2025 at 5:41 PM Post #26,910 of 27,054
There's plenty of people who've chosen May instead of DAVE.
I felt that way, but in the opposite direction, the May is not for me.
Had the May, it was incredible, especially for the 1266TC, but after i bought the Immanis, the May was a really bad anti-synergy piece, and it took me some time to find that out. I originally wanted to go for a TT2+MScaler, but ended up with the Dave+MScaler instead, never missing the May afterwards, not even with the 1266TC.
Regarding the MScaler it comes down to if you have an upscaling method already or not, because any TOTL DAC does improve considerably when you're using higher res files (except maybe the typical NOS DAC's, which the May is one of, which is why i liked it with my normal 44.1kHz stuff).
I also did a big comparison post or two in this thread about them. Of course i never heard the Hugo 2 or TT2, but the Dave is incredible and was a step-up in terms of resolution, dynamics, bass and also separation (all in combination with the MScaler of course) to the May. What i lost compared to the May: Musicality and laid-back, forgiving sound, but since i own an Envy, i can easily get the musicality factor back with tubes.
I now think that the Dave (with the MScaler) is a serious step-up from the May. Especially when owning a tube amp i would recommend getting a more incisive / aggressive / forward sounding DAC.
 

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