[Jawed]

Far too many audiophiles disagree, from experience, and to say it is so, is an insult to their own ears.

With a DAC that isn't a Chord those audiophiles could easily be correct, because jitter is a problem for DACs, in general, it seems.

You should try optical with your DAVE sometime. Make sure to disconnect all other sources when you do.

 

[elviscaprice]

With a DAC that isn't a Chord those audiophiles could easily be correct, because jitter is a problem for DACs, in general, it seems.

Not true, from our listening experiences, it would appear all DAC's, Chord included are effected by upstream clocking/power.

You should try optical with your DAVE sometime. Make sure to disconnect all other sources when you do.

Of course we have. But obviously due to it's technical limitations we don't pursue any further in trying to optimize the source for optical. Might as well go USB for greater format capability.

 

[Jawed]

Of course we have.

So you're in agreement with Romaz, I suppose, with a strong dislike for optical.

But obviously due to it's technical limitations we don't pursue any further in trying to optimize the source for optical. Might as well go USB for greater format capability.

Yes the format restrictions caused by optical are a problem. I use USB so that playing hi-res is easy.

 

[jaspal kallar]

The Voxativ 9.87's come bundled with the Voxativ dipole bass units, which are absolutely remarkable: dual high efficiency 98dB sensitivity drivers facing each other, driven by a 250W class A/B amp. By far the cleanest and fastest and most musical bass I've ever heard. If you need a sub for any musical system (Voxativ or no), you must give these a listen.

When I was running my Omega Super Alnico Monitors, I experimented pairing with my JL Audio F112v2 sub, but I didn't find it strictly necessary. The Omega SAMs very comfortably get to the mid 30's. The sub was wonderful for filling out the resonances from various instruments (piano, strings, etc) and you definitely heard a richer, more full sound, but the SAMs by themselves were very satisfying for me.

The Omega Compact Alnico Monitors were a bit thinner, giving up maybe 5-7Hz on the low end. I found that I really wanted some additional heft at the low end when listening to the CAMs.

As an interesting aside, my buddy recently snagged a First Watt F1J amp http://www.firstwatt.com/f1j.html . This is a 10WPC class A current amp, that in theory is more immune to variable impedance loads from the driver. In theory, it is very well matched to single driver units like the Omegas.

The combination of the F1J with the Omega SAMs blew us away. To give you a sense of the moment, within 5 seconds, people were exclaiming WOW! and my buddy had his arms in the air yelling "Yes!"

They sound like full range speakers now(!), with bass clearly audible into the mid 20s (although diminished) with even more incredible dynamics and rich full presence (usually a weakness of the Omegas). Absolutely no sub required with the SAMs if you have this amp! The F1J is powering through any load quirks from the Omega drivers and taking names!

As context, I have also driven the SAMs with a Classe CT-2300 amp (300WPC) and Benchmark AHB2 amp (100WPC) that were normally connected to my (dearly departed) B&W802d3 speakers. Using those more traditional amps, Omega SAMs sounded like OK bookshelf speakers. Absolutely nothing like revelation we heard with the F1J's!

He's loaning it to me for the weekend, so I'll be playing with it with my Omega SAMs and Voxativs and BluDAVE, to get a better sense of the tradeoffs between transparency and imaging (from having an amp in the chain) and dynamics and range (from having a kick ass current amp in the chain)

(edit: corrected First Watt F1 to First Watt F1J)

The Voxativ 9.87's come bundled with the Voxativ dipole bass units, which are absolutely remarkable: dual high efficiency 98dB sensitivity drivers facing each other, driven by a 250W class A/B amp. By far the cleanest and fastest and most musical bass I've ever heard. If you need a sub for any musical system (Voxativ or no), you must give these a listen.

When I was running my Omega Super Alnico Monitors, I experimented pairing with my JL Audio F112v2 sub, but I didn't find it strictly necessary. The Omega SAMs very comfortably get to the mid 30's. The sub was wonderful for filling out the resonances from various instruments (piano, strings, etc) and you definitely heard a richer, more full sound, but the SAMs by themselves were very satisfying for me.

The Omega Compact Alnico Monitors were a bit thinner, giving up maybe 5-7Hz on the low end. I found that I really wanted some additional heft at the low end when listening to the CAMs.

As an interesting aside, my buddy recently snagged a First Watt F1J amp http://www.firstwatt.com/f1j.html . This is a 10WPC class A current amp, that in theory is more immune to variable impedance loads from the driver. In theory, it is very well matched to single driver units like the Omegas.

The combination of the F1J with the Omega SAMs blew us away. To give you a sense of the moment, within 5 seconds, people were exclaiming WOW! and my buddy had his arms in the air yelling "Yes!"

They sound like full range speakers now(!), with bass clearly audible into the mid 20s (although diminished) with even more incredible dynamics and rich full presence (usually a weakness of the Omegas). Absolutely no sub required with the SAMs if you have this amp! The F1J is powering through any load quirks from the Omega drivers and taking names!

As context, I have also driven the SAMs with a Classe CT-2300 amp (300WPC) and Benchmark AHB2 amp (100WPC) that were normally connected to my (dearly departed) B&W802d3 speakers. Using those more traditional amps, Omega SAMs sounded like OK bookshelf speakers. Absolutely nothing like revelation we heard with the F1J's!

He's loaning it to me for the weekend, so I'll be playing with it with my Omega SAMs and Voxativs and BluDAVE, to get a better sense of the tradeoffs between transparency and imaging (from having an amp in the chain) and dynamics and range (from having a kick ass current amp in the chain)

(edit: corrected First Watt F1 to First Watt F1J)

Thanks for the informative reply @ray-dude, appreciate it

 

[flyte3333]

iPad on USB: the iPad connected to USB came second but very very close to the optical and completely smashed the USB out of the Mac Mini via SOtM chain!

Thanks for sharing. All your observations pretty much reflect all of my own.

Especially how an optimised USB source like your SMS-200 Ultra and my microRendu v1.4 isn’t enough to beat a plain old mobile endpoint- in my case a cheap iPod Touch !

I think (at a guess) the difference we are hearing is a small amount of leakage currents and RF getting into Dave versus NO leakage currents and RF getting into Dave (battery powered solution).

The small difference between Toslink and the battery powered USB source is definitely not worth the time arguing about and as we both agree, we’d easily fail a blind test there.

And as we both agreed, better off picking the most practical one for most everyday listening and the best sounding one for critical listening. For me it happens to be the reverse, where Toslink is more practical for everyday use, only because of my setup.

The effect of completely 100% blocking the leakage currents and hence RF getting into Dave is the most significant finding for me and my ears, i.e both a mains disconnected USB source and Toslink source. That difference is not a small one.

And not a single ferrite needs to be harmed with either of these options

 

[GryphonGuy]

... since it is all just ones and zeroes ...

If only that were true, life would be easier. Digital music is transmitted on an analogue waveform.

Regards
GG

 

[Crgreen]

With a DAC that isn't a Chord those audiophiles could easily be correct, because jitter is a problem for DACs, in general, it seems.

You should try optical with your DAVE sometime. Make sure to disconnect all other sources when you do.

With the greatest respect, when I read your posts I’m put in mind of that Todd Rundgren song: “Bang the Drum All Day”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but repeating points so often doesn’t make them true.

 

[doraymon]

@Rob Watts can you tell us if you are using the stock power cord or a different one with Dave and if you are using ferrites on it?
Thanks and apologies if you have already provided this information in the past.

 

[Rob Watts]

Yes I just use the stock mains cables. I tried adding ferrites on the mains input, and could not hear a difference with the 300MHz types.... but Dave has crazy levels of power supply RF filtering and internal regulation.

 

[doraymon]

Yeah, same here.
I placed 20 of them on the stock power cord but can't tell the difference.
I would need a second stock power cord to A/B but I'm tired of running the same 10 songs over and over again.
My wife has already asked me if I'm going cucu... LOL

 

[jayz]

What I don't understand is, why do we bother connecting laptops / PCs to Dave and worry about interference when one could get a dedicated source like Auralic Aries? Normal logic would suggest that the extra cost should be insignificant if you own a Dave. Not saying Aries is completely noise free but it would definitely be cleaner than a laptop.

Also, why is the EMI RFI discussion based around Optical vs USB. Has someone done an exhaustive test and concluded that BNC coax is not even worth considering? I ask because with my dedicated network player source, coax sounds better than optical (better depth and imaging) - this is Qutest but thought I'd ask on the Dave thread anyway.

 

[elviscaprice]

What I don't understand is, why do we bother connecting laptops / PCs to Dave and worry about interference when one could get a dedicated source like Auralic Aries? Normal logic would suggest that the extra cost should be insignificant if you own a Dave. Not saying Aries is completely noise free but it would definitely be cleaner than a laptop.

Also, why is the EMI RFI discussion based around Optical vs USB. Has someone done an exhaustive test and concluded that BNC coax is not even worth considering? I ask because with my dedicated network player source, coax sounds better than optical (better depth and imaging) - this is Qutest but thought I'd ask on the Dave thread anyway.

What, you don't think that Aries doesn't have a mobo in it? Would rather pay more for someone else's server design/limitations?
It's just like ethernet a few years back, everyone thought it was the savior to noise reduced streaming. How views change once we get into it. There is no magical interface. In order to get the best signal to the DAC, for best SQ, careful thought on power/clocking/isolation needs to be put in place. Thus I choose to work on the one that gives me the most versatility in acceptance and format/software features.

 

[flyte3333]

What I don't understand is, why do we bother connecting laptops / PCs to Dave and worry about interference when one could get a dedicated source like Auralic Aries? Normal logic would suggest that the extra cost should be insignificant if you own a Dave.

Hi mate,

I'm not Rob of course but I'll share 3 key points Rob has taught me (I shared this previously). I'm sure the Guru will step in if I've misunderstood anything he's taught me!

From Rob:

1. battery mode operation should mean no ground loops, so no current flow into the ground planes, then no RF noise pick-up in the DAC and so no problem… This has been validated by listening tests.

2. As to external RF, it only matters if there is a ground loop, so battery operation should mean no currents flowing into the DAC ground plane…

3. We need current through the ground plane to set up voltages - and it is these voltages that the analogue electronics pick up. So no current, no voltage on the ground plane, no pick-up… The common mode noise, won’t affect the analogue electronics at all.

An Aries plugged into mains power will still provide a path (loop) for leakage currents to go through Dave (except for the Aries optical output of course). Block the leakage currents and you have no RF getting into the DAC (see above points).

Regarding the cost of Aries relative to Dave, recent findings by myself and @doraymon here (observations are just a few posts above) are that throwing more money at the source doesn't necessarily automatically result in better SQ. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. doraymon has a superb SMS-200 Ultra chain that would be close to as good as it gets for a mains connected USB source and he found the same as me - a battery based USB source sounded noticeably better. These are just our observations - nothing conclusive. I'm certainly no expert but my ears agree with Rob's facts/teachings.

Not saying Aries is completely noise free but it would definitely be cleaner than a laptop.

A laptop running on battery (disconnected from mains power) completely blocks leakage currents getting into the DAC. See above regarding leakage currents and RF.

Also, why is the EMI RFI discussion based around Optical vs USB. Has someone done an exhaustive test and concluded that BNC coax is not even worth considering? I ask because with my dedicated network player source, coax sounds better than optical (better depth and imaging)

All of Dave's inputs sound fantastic, so it's no surprise you're loving coax. The discussion of optical vs USB (recent) is because these are the 2 easiest inputs to compare which can block ALL leakage currents getting into the DAC.

With USB, just run the USB source (laptop or mobile source) off battery and you've got a very cheap way to hear the best of Rob's DACs at the maximum sample rates the DAC supports. It's usually free (or little cost if you need to get an adapter or cable) and easy to try.

A BNC source can block leakage currents too, but it's tricky finding a battery powered BNC source. It's easier to try a battery powered USB source, since we all have one, whether laptop or tablet or phone.

That's if you can be bothered trying all this stuff. I've now found what I think is the best SQ from Dave with my iPod Touch Roon Endpoint USB output for critical listening (running off battery, not plugged into the wall charger of course) and I'm just about done with testing and tweaking any more because I'm just about over it.

Listening to music is much more fun ! But it's been a fascinating experience learning from Rob (for me anyway).

I'm sure Rob's already worked out how to block 100% all leakage currents and RF from all inputs for Dave 2 in a few years. I'm not aware of any mains connected DAC on the planet yet that can block all leakage currents and RF on SPDIF (BNC and RCA) and USB and I2S etc inputs (except MAYBE the Vinnie Rossi LIO integrated with DAC, since it is plugged into mains power but supposed to be mains isolated via Ultra Capacitor power banks although I would GUESS there is still some tiny amount of capacitive coupling there). No doubt because it's very very complicated stuff. But an optical source and battery powered USB source isn't complicated to try and get the same result (no leakage currents and RF into Dave).

 

[jonstatt]

The Aries G2 is a bit different as it has galvanic isolation of it’s DAC usb output. I suspect this would further help a mains powered streamer get closer to a battery powered source with DAVE. It also means you don’t need all those ifi bits or isoregen cluttering things up.

 

[jonstatt]

That's the one I recommended over in the Hugo2 thread and had working really nicely at 24/192kHz over Toslink, with both Mojo and Hugo2.

It won't work at 192kHz with Dave though. But if the 96kHz limit isn't an issue, it's a good buy.

Why is DAVE limited to 96 but not Hugo or Mojo? Isn’t that just down to choosing the right optical cable?