[rkt31]

I have been recording hugo and mojo clips lately though mobile as well as Olympus ls100 hand held high resolution recorder . the clips have much better and expressive vocals than laptop or TV as source . it's like converting already recorded analog tape into digital by a high end ADC or by laptop adc.

 

[Jawed]

The comparison videos of DAVE versus M Scaler + DAVE are fascinating.

First, it's worth pointing out that the peak level in the first video, DAVE only, is 0.4dB louder than in the second video. I don't know how that difference has arisen - could M Scaler be quieter? Or is this just a side effect of room resonances being set off differently by the two configurations - M Scaler has a purer sound, less resonant?

(When I compared TT versus DAVE, I found there's a sense that DAVE's sound is "less resonant" and relative amplitudes within a piece of music are more faithful to what's in the recording. TT sounds "random" especially as macro dynamics change - some of that is noise modulation I think, but sometimes the effect is disturbingly loud.)

Ignoring the 0.4dB difference, though, the piano sounds surprisingly different. It sounds a bit like it's a synthesiser in the DAVE video. For me, the difference in piano between the two videos is the hardest to ignore. DAVE alone is annoying in the way the piano sounds.

Just before she starts singing you can hear a creaking sound. I think it's the bass player's shoes. This is clearer in the DAVE video. It's really obvious in the "pure" version of this track that Light Man linked in post 8472.

Then as she sings the first line, "You don't bring me flowers" there's 3 clicking sounds. These sounds are in the "pure" video. These clicking sounds are heard again throughout the next few lines she sings, but start to get harder to hear.

On M Scaler these clicking sounds are really loud. On DAVE alone, they're much harder to hear. When I first heard this difference comparing the two videos, I thought it was someone in the room making sounds - e.g. tapping something. Then I heard them on the DAVE video as I listened more carefully. Then I checked the "pure" version, and there they are - it's not someone in the room making these sounds.

So, it's curious how the "bass player's shoes" are clearer on DAVE but the clicking sounds are clearer on M Scaler.

Overall there is definitely a sense of DAVE alone being clumsy and less real. It seems ridiculous, but M Scaler in this quick comparison reminds me of why DAVE is better than TT. It's exactly the same kind of improvement. It's oddly compelling. Or, put another way, DAVE alone sounds annoyingly broken compared with M Scaler. I've only had DAVE a few months but the deep satisfaction it brings in the way it plays music (compared with what I had living with TT) is exactly the kind of difference I'm feeling comparing these two videos.

It makes me contemplate this thing. But I did promise myself to wait until M Scaler + DAVE is integrated into a single box, a few years down the road (at a much lower price than these two boxes are right now). Hmm, maybe this video comparison is more dangerous than I was expecting...

 

[icebear]

Discussing sound differences based on a you tube video recorded with a cell phone ??
<facepalm>

 

[Rob Watts]

The comparison videos of DAVE versus M Scaler + DAVE are fascinating.

First, it's worth pointing out that the peak level in the first video, DAVE only, is 0.4dB louder than in the second video. I don't know how that difference has arisen - could M Scaler be quieter? Or is this just a side effect of room resonances being set off differently by the two configurations - M Scaler has a purer sound, less resonant?

(When I compared TT versus DAVE, I found there's a sense that DAVE's sound is "less resonant" and relative amplitudes within a piece of music are more faithful to what's in the recording. TT sounds "random" especially as macro dynamics change - some of that is noise modulation I think, but sometimes the effect is disturbingly loud.)

Ignoring the 0.4dB difference, though, the piano sounds surprisingly different. It sounds a bit like it's a synthesiser in the DAVE video. For me, the difference in piano between the two videos is the hardest to ignore. DAVE alone is annoying in the way the piano sounds.

Just before she starts singing you can hear a creaking sound. I think it's the bass player's shoes. This is clearer in the DAVE video. It's really obvious in the "pure" version of this track that Light Man linked in post 8472.

Then as she sings the first line, "You don't bring me flowers" there's 3 clicking sounds. These sounds are in the "pure" video. These clicking sounds are heard again throughout the next few lines she sings, but start to get harder to hear.

On M Scaler these clicking sounds are really loud. On DAVE alone, they're much harder to hear. When I first heard this difference comparing the two videos, I thought it was someone in the room making sounds - e.g. tapping something. Then I heard them on the DAVE video as I listened more carefully. Then I checked the "pure" version, and there they are - it's not someone in the room making these sounds.

So, it's curious how the "bass player's shoes" are clearer on DAVE but the clicking sounds are clearer on M Scaler.

Overall there is definitely a sense of DAVE alone being clumsy and less real. It seems ridiculous, but M Scaler in this quick comparison reminds me of why DAVE is better than TT. It's exactly the same kind of improvement. It's oddly compelling. Or, put another way, DAVE alone sounds annoyingly broken compared with M Scaler. I've only had DAVE a few months but the deep satisfaction it brings in the way it plays music (compared with what I had living with TT) is exactly the kind of difference I'm feeling comparing these two videos.

It makes me contemplate this thing. But I did promise myself to wait until M Scaler + DAVE is integrated into a single box, a few years down the road (at a much lower price than these two boxes are right now). Hmm, maybe this video comparison is more dangerous than I was expecting...

Actually the M scaler is 0.234 dB louder - as the WTA filter insertion loss is -2.766 dB, and Dave is manually increased on the volume by +3 dB.

As to waiting till M scaler is integrated into a DAC - well there are serious problems I need to solve to be able to do this; the ground current from the FPGA on the M scaler is too signal dependent and large at 10 A; previous experience has taught me that signal related ground currents do degrade THD and noise and upsets depth perception; so this is a massive problem to solve. Maybe I can think up a power balancing architecture on the DSP's; maybe I can filter the ground currents and isolate the analogue ground and digital grounds (this did not work in the past); maybe I could run split domains within the DAC and have galvanic isolation. I don't know how to solve these problems and guarantee complete isolation except for putting the M scaler in a separate unit. Galvanic isolation is (relatively) easy with a 16 FS signal - I just have two data lines to isolate. And it works; the first prototype M scaler did not have isolation, just RF filtering and the second unit did and that made quite a difference to the sound quality. The third or production unit was better again, with improved RF filtering on the isolation power supply and this too was very audible.

Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...

 

[hieukm]

Actually the M scaler is 0.234 dB louder - as the WTA filter insertion loss is -2.766 dB, and Dave is manually increased on the volume by +3 dB.

As to waiting till M scaler is integrated into a DAC - well there are serious problems I need to solve to be able to do this; the ground current from the FPGA on the M scaler is too signal dependent and large at 10 A; previous experience has taught me that signal related ground currents do degrade THD and noise and upsets depth perception; so this is a massive problem to solve. Maybe I can think up a power balancing architecture on the DSP's; maybe I can filter the ground currents and isolate the analogue ground and digital grounds (this did not work in the past); maybe I could run split domains within the DAC and have galvanic isolation. I don't know how to solve these problems and guarantee complete isolation except for putting the M scaler in a separate unit. Galvanic isolation is (relatively) easy with a 16 FS signal - I just have two data lines to isolate. And it works; the first prototype M scaler did not have isolation, just RF filtering and the second unit did and that made quite a difference to the sound quality. The third or production unit was better again, with improved RF filtering on the isolation power supply and this too was very audible.

Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...

Does this mean there will be continual revision to the M-Scaler?

 

[hieukm]

Discussing sound differences based on a you tube video recorded with a cell phone ??
<facepalm>

So you prefer meaningful descriptive discussion about sound?

 

[jlbrach]

Once again a bit of education is needed I think.
I know there are quite a few here who don't like to be educated judging from some reactions posted when I tried to re-establish the ultimate reference regarding HI FI.
I wonder how many there are among those raving about these clips and differences between them actually realize that with both they are in fact listening to recordings made with a completely different system than the ones portrayed in the clips.
Guys wake up! you are listening to NEITHER DAVE NOR DAVE+Mscaler! But recordings made of the two.
And played back via yet another system.
The lack of references and sense of logic among some people here is sometimes absolutely appalling.

Bingo

 

[Triode User]

Does this mean there will be continual revision to the M-Scaler?

No, read his words. He says there are issues to solved before an integrated Dave / M Scaler can be considered and that he doesn't have solutions to these issues at the moment nor is he on the brink of having solutions. Therefore he suggests not hanging back hoping that there will be a new M Scaler iteration soon because it is many years away.

Also, don't forget that Rob Watts has said several times that now that they have an M Scaler in production his attention is diverted to other projects such as the new digital amp and he does not envisage any work on any different M Scaler projects any time soon (apart from Davina).

Rob then goes on to say that developments in components will mean that the M Scaler can be changed / improved but that will be years away (he mentions 10 years).

That's my take on it.

 

[raypin]

Mm...accept no substitute. Audition the equipment. I've heard the Blu 2 during CanJam Singapore. The LCD XC was breath-taking.

I wonder what I'll hear: Blu 2 + Dave + HE 1.

 

[raypin]

Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr and audioquest diamond usb). Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.

 

[stvc]

Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr). Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/r...phile-vortex-box.787020/page-56#post-13449131

Get the sotm, we can compare it with micro rendu. From Singapore too

 

[Triode User]

Mm..what audio streamer are you guys using with your Dave? Preparng to dump my Surface Book and iPad Pro 12.9. Part of my prep work for the arrival of the one. Also in the process of upgrading my electrical equipment (power cables (nrg 10), line conditioner (monitor acoustics) , electrical outlet etc.). I'm good and ready with my interconnects (atlas asimi xlr). Been thinking of the Aurender A10 since it MQA ready, Tidal ready etc. Any suggestions? TIA.

I use an Auralic Aries with Tidal. I am currently testing a beta version of the firmware that has MQA unfolding. It seems to work well so I assume it will be released as a general firmware upgrade. I also like the Lightning DS app that also seems to work well.

I also use the Aries to listen to quite a bit of internet radio, mostly BBC Radio 3.

 

[raypin]

Mm...I read somewhere that Auralic dumped MQA?? True or false. My requirements are simple. Tidal, full MQA, excellent digital output to my Dave (No damn treble glare), excellent iOS app to control everything and have wifi.

 

[Triode User]

Mm...I read somewhere that Auralic dumped MQA?? True or false. My requirements are simple. Tidal, full MQA, excellent digital output to my Dave (No damn treble glare), excellent iOS app to control everything and have wifi.

That is (I am pretty sure) old news.

The beta version of the Aries firmware was released in April this year has full MQA support.

 

[JaZZ]

Of course, as FPGA's get better, the power loss gets less. So maybe in ten years time we can have an M scaler with a tenth of the core current from today. Fingers crossed... But can you wait ten years? I can't...

Ten years would indeed be too long. But remember that maybe next year or so Davina with integrated M-Scaler will hit the market, and it won't be long that there will be a stand-alone M-Scaler.