Aug 23, 2016 at 12:48 PM Post #4,291 of 27,068
My observation is that in years past, audiophiles craved warmth and a certain pleasant albeit artificial harmonic because it was necessary.   Necessary to compensate for poor recordings, jitter, glare, harshness, shallowness or just general lifelessness.  Because many of these problems couldn't be overcome, it became easier to cover them up.  It would be like spraying on cologne to mask body odor when what was really needed was a good bath.  

As transducers, amplifiers, and cables have improved, it is the digital front end that many continue to blame as the culprit.  Ask any vinyl lover why they continue to cling to their turntables and many will tell you it's because they don't believe digital is as good because of the glare and harshness that many equate with digital.  They call it "digititis." Many of these folks will also tell you that when they compare analog to digital, something seems "missing" with digital.   Is it the digital file, the music server or the DAC that's the problem?  It's probably a combination of all of these things but those of us who have spent quality time with the DAVE understand just how much more information is present in a Redbook file or even a 320k file than our previous DACs led us to believe.  You don't appreciate these previously hidden details right away but as you get used to the information that the DAVE provides, you begin to very easily notice just how much is missing when you listen to other systems.

There are those of us who enjoy going to live events and given the choice, some of us would prefer to sit on the stage amidst the performers so that we're engulfed with the music.  Then there are those of us who prefer to sit in the stalls where we can better glean the soundstage and the acoustics of the venue.  Of course, there are those who are content sitting in the balcony to save a few dollars just so long as we get to experience the performance live.  Regardless of one's preference, those of us who attend live events understand that there's nothing quite like "being there."  While high-end audio will never be a true substitute for "being there", the only way to approach this ideal is to have access to as much of the details of the performance as possible.  In my view, you can never have too much detail.  This is what a good DAC is responsible for.  The goal of an amplifier is to amplify these details that are presented to it and the goal of the transducer is to convincingly present this analog waveform to your ears.  If the details aren't there, then what good is the best amplifier or transducer?  Garbage in, garbage out.  If the details aren't there, then what good is the DAC even if it does a nice job of covering up its inadequacies with softness and harmonics? This is where I believe people miss the boat with what a DAC is supposed to do.  A good DAC isn't supposed to sound good, it is supposed to be a faithful translator.  The onus of sounding good needs to belong to the performance and to the recording of that performance.  If the performance is good and the translation has been done faithfully, then the rest of the chain merely has to get out of the way.  

Of course, no component is perfect or truly transparent.  We all know about the issues with ADCs.  Short of a million TAPS, even the DAVE falls short.  Transducers have their quirks and so speakers and headphones need to be properly paired with an amplifier that highlights their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.  Since nothing is truly transparent, the best systems, IMO, are about balance which is why system integration is such an artform and can take months or even years to perfect.  I think life is soooo much easier, however, if you're starting from a neutral, resolving, clean and faithful source than one that keeps secrets or tells lies.  Those of you who have photography backgrounds will understand this final analogy very well.  Most photographers prefer to shoot in RAW format rather than JPEGs even though JPEGs can look better upon first presentation.  Why?  Because the RAW file has all of the information present whereas the JPEG has been manipulated where data has been truncated to achieve a certain pre-determined degree of sharpening and white balance.  What if a certain portrait requires more or less sharpening than has been performed or the white balance has to be further adjusted?  Well, too bad.  You can make adjustments in post but it will result in even further degradation of the file.  With a RAW file, if you were lucky enough to photograph a beautiful model that requires no retouching, then you'll be glad that automatic retouching wasn't performed.  With photographs that definitely benefit from beautification, then do it in post and not at the compromise of resolution.  DACs should be looked at the same way.  Let it faithfully present to you all that a recording has to offer, warts and all, and figure out how to make adjustments downstream.


A well reasoned and sensible post Romaz. One of the best of recent months I think.

DAC's are now showing us what was there all along. I wish more speaker manufacturers would also focus on delivering the eq and focus of the original recording rather than trying to deliver their stock ''sound'. In most cases their stock sound was developed during an era of bad digital reproduction in order achieve the same cover ups you mention above. In this day and age I think we should be seeing a drive for flat response and less wide dispersion from tweeters too. I want to hear what the producer intended. Give us the truth! :-)
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 1:01 PM Post #4,294 of 27,068
Is Dave that much better than some of the top CD players of the last 5 years or so from some of the better known digital companies like Esoteric, EMM, and Playback Designs? Or is just a different sound?
(I haven't heard DAVE but I've heard many of these, for the record.)
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 1:33 PM Post #4,295 of 27,068
Is Dave that much better than some of the top CD players of the last 5 years or so from some of the better known digital companies like Esoteric, EMM, and Playback Designs? Or is just a different sound?
(I haven't heard DAVE but I've heard many of these, for the record.)


Fwiw, Over the years I have compared the Chord Red Reference with a number of players and DCS in particular to compare development. DCS always had a beautiful sound in terms of smoothness and good imaging and bass control. What it always lacked (to my ears at least) was musicality and emotion. Rob's DAC always had that, though as I used to tell my supplier "The mathematics aren't quite correct yet" It lacked the smoothness of DCS but still had the musicality of real music. I felt Rob was on the right course and I backed him and Chord through all 3 versions of the Red Reference and With each iteration the mathematics sounded more and more correct to my ears. Now with Dave I think Rob has cracked it. The musicality and/or emotion has benefitted further too.

If I ever compare a dac in the future though I will do it via top notch headphones even though I listen through speakers. That is the purist test to my mind and I would recommend all listeners test under the same conditions as it eliminates room reflections.
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 1:36 PM Post #4,296 of 27,068
Btw I have also demo'd EMM and Esoteric though that was a few years ago now. My how time flies when your having fun!
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 2:46 PM Post #4,297 of 27,068
In this day and age I think we should be seeing a drive for flat response and less wide dispersion from tweeters too. I want to hear what the producer intended. Give us the truth! :-)

 
That's a misunderstanding. Tweeters have an uneven radiation pattern (the higher the frequency, the narrower the angle) due to physical limitations, not because the sound is «right» that way. Another cause of uneven radiation are crossover frequencies with multiway speakers – unavoidable as well. The ideal would be an even radiation angle throughout the audio band – no matter which. An unacheivable goal. In the first place because low frequencies are omnidirectional by the laws of physics (in the realm of loudspeakers). That said, there's one way to halve the reflected low-frequency content: dipole subwoofers. But they come with other acoustic problems and are hard to match to the conventional drivers upward.
 
In my experience from my speaker-builder era one concept is particularly promising to passably overcome the problem: tweeters with spherical radiation. Have you ever heard a plasma flame reproducing the high-frequency content? It sounds phenomenally natural, also and especially compared to tweeters with narrower radiation, such as cone, dome and ribbon drivers and horn tweeters (even those with plasma driver). Now plasma drivers aren't practical in the real world, so I experimented with reflecting ceramic cones on the top of vertically radiating piezo tweeters (among others, such as dynamic horn tweeters), with sensational results, at least when it comes to spatial realism. Unfortunately this concept suffers from slightly smeared transients due to the reflections (but not more than usual horn speakers). The achievable ideal in my book would be specially shaped «dome» tweeters with not more than 21 mm diameter without acoustically active surround (but a permeable mesh instead). Due to hearing problems (tinnitus et al.) I gave up this hobby before realizing a prototype.
 
In an earlier phase I experimented with transformerless ribbon drivers. One of them with a frequency range from 600 Hz up to >20 kHz would have matched your above ideal of a narrow dispersion. It definitely sounded incredibly precise (the damping velvet layer on the front plate also helped by reducing reflections), but also rather dry – hence unnatural. With a trick I managed to temper the issue: Horn tweeters behind the ribbon transducers directed toward the side walls made for a much greater realism. Another prototype of a ribbon supertweeter with extremely wide horizontal dispersion and still relatively wide vertical dispersion (membrane size 8 x 24 mm) sounded very good and natural – but still failed to create a perfectly realistic sound field. If I were still in this hobby, maybe I would have realized a ring-shaped ribbon tweeter...
 
What I mean by «realistic sound field» is a natural, hence passably uniform dispersion of all frequencies with the goal of a neutral/natural frequency content within the reflected sound, if possible passably uniform across the whole listening room, for a correspondingly natural/realistic/plausible mix of impact angles on the outer ear. It doesn't really matter which degree the reflected sound has with respect to the direct sound. Virtually no reflections would mimic an open-air concert, which has its own charm. But since we're talking of speakers in a living room, that's an unrealistic scenario. BTW, listening to music in an anechoic chamber sounds nothing like in the open – low frequencies can't be sufficiently damped away, therefore an anechoic chamber makes for a rather claustrophobic experience. Which also demonstrates the importance of a passably uniform frequency content of the reflected sound. Unfortunately the radiation characteristic of musical instruments is kind of individual. A trumpet has a narrow high-frequency dispersion, a cymbal or a triangle radiates almost spherically, a violin is something in between. So what's possible is just an approach to the ideal – but among what's possible a spherical radiation of high frequencies up to the highest frequencies has proven to be the best compromise to my ears. Of course you have to take care for noncompromizing room conditioning, otherwise such a concept could very well sound much too reverberative, especially with speakers placed close to a wall (any wall!).
 
I really wish I could hear what the DAVE is capable of making with such a noncompromizing speaker setup!
 
Sorry for being somewhat off topic! I had to react to the desired narrow high-frequency dispersion.
tongue.gif
And to the often recommended beveling of the speakers toward the listener: it makes things even worse.
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 2:58 PM Post #4,298 of 27,068
Jazz
Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation of your point.

My brief mention of tweeter inadequacies was related to a recent audition of Kef's Reference one speakers with the new ultra wide dispersion tweeter. I have a backup pair of Reference 205/2 speakers from Kef also and I was less than impressed by the new tweeters lack of focus. It seemed to me a step backwards and I was rather disappointed as they had spent more than $1m on R&D to deliver something which could not compete with its predecessor.

Edit: ......in terms of imaging focus
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 3:09 PM Post #4,299 of 27,068
Jazz
Thanks for taking the time to provide such a detailed explanation of your point.

My brief mention of tweeter inadequacies was related to a recent audition of Kef's Reference one speakers with the new ultra wide dispersion tweeter. I have a backup pair of Reference 205/2 speakers from Kef also and I was less than impressed by the new tweeters lack of focus. It seemed to me a step backwards and I was rather disappointed as they had spent more than $1m on R&D to deliver something which could not compete with its predecessor.

Edit: ......in terms of imaging focus

 
The Reference One looks like an interesting concept, but a problematic one as well. A wide-dispersion tweeter in the center of a cone squawker (with metal membrane) calls for massive near-field reflections. Transients are actually doomed to be smeared. Point source is good, but the price is too high in my book.
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 7:18 PM Post #4,300 of 27,068
@JaZZ you need to hear the Smyth Research Realiser A16 in action.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/105#post_12790190

The technology is trying to do the wrong thing in my view: replicate the sound of a stereo or multi-channel speaker system. But it proves that there is a way to transform audio for playback through headphones that precisely replicates the experience of another soundfield. I hope the day will come when headphones, with the right recordings and math, can faithfully reproduce original soundfields.
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 8:08 PM Post #4,301 of 27,068
@JaZZ you need to hear the Smyth Research Realiser A16 in action.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/105#post_12790190

The technology is trying to do the wrong thing in my view: replicate the sound of a stereo or multi-channel speaker system. But it proves that there is a way to transform audio for playback through headphones that precisely replicates the experience of another soundfield. I hope the day will come when headphones, with the right recordings and math, can faithfully reproduce original soundfields.

 
Yeah, that's fascinating stuff. But...
 
(...) This includes the colourations of the speakers, which were painfully clear (with room sound on top). I'd prefer an idealised sound presentation of acoustic spaces over a presentation of speakers playing a recording. But the technology to do that doesn't seem to exist. It's a shame, because frankly, one of the reasons I listen to music and video exclusively on headphones now is to escape from the sound of speakers playing in rooms, which is usually crap (and in my previous life I lived with a high end system for years, though I admit that was fab, not crap).

 
...I have exactly the same reservations as you, apart from the financial aspect. If once a simulation of the real thing is possible, I will certainly reconsider it.
 
Aug 23, 2016 at 8:16 PM Post #4,302 of 27,068
@JaZZ you need to hear the Smyth Research Realiser A16 in action.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/817115/canjam-london-2016-impressions-thread-august-13-14-2016/105#post_12790190

The technology is trying to do the wrong thing in my view: replicate the sound of a stereo or multi-channel speaker system. But it proves that there is a way to transform audio for playback through headphones that precisely replicates the experience of another soundfield. I hope the day will come when headphones, with the right recordings and math, can faithfully reproduce original soundfields.

At the end of the day I plugged my HD 800 S into DAVE and enjoyed it more than yesterday.

 
What didn't you enjoy about the DAVE from the day before?
 
Aug 24, 2016 at 3:35 AM Post #4,303 of 27,068
Never likely to own DAVE, but did enjoy a good listen at London Canjam
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Always a pleasure meeting the guys from Chord.
 
Aug 24, 2016 at 9:48 AM Post #4,304 of 27,068
I was very impressed with the sense of depth that Dave gives, but this was on a hi-end Naim/Dynaudio system
 
Does listening to Dave on headphones gives the same sense of depth?
 
Also how does Dave compare to a hi-end turntable ?
 
On many albums, my Hugo does completely trounce my entry level project debut carbon turntable
 
Aug 24, 2016 at 12:07 PM Post #4,305 of 27,068
I tried the Dave against a Totaldac a while back on speakers. The difference was so resounding I was floored. The Dave was much better at separation on complex passages, and the sense of 3D space was instant and unmissable. It was the difference between listening to a recording, and being at the studio.

Nonetheless, one of the guys at the same audition preferred the Totaldac's warmth and more analog sound. But for me, I wasn't listening for frequency response- there are many other ways to tune that, including change the amp, change the cables, change the speakers, change the tubes (if using a tube amp), change the power conditioner, even change the power cord.

Where it mattered to me- the technicalities- it was so obvious that pretty early on I thought to myself, "why is this sonic test still going on?" At one point the Totaldac owner played a very complex passage to convince himself for sure, then told me, "yep, the Dave is much better at separation and details". I just nodded.

I guess not everyone is looking for the same thing in a DAC.

Anyhow, just my two cents!
 

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