CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[JaZZ]

Hi Romaz
I've currently got the Dave on a few days loan, which I'm listening to with my HE1000 and using an AK380 as source (mostly Apples lossless CD rips) - everything stock, no expensive cables and no amps, just AK380/Dave/HE1000. I understand from the dealer that the Dave has had less than 10 hours run in. I have to say that although the definition and transparency is mightily impressive it does sound a little cold and 'hard', and ever so slightly bass-light compared to the Hugo TT. Can I expect much change after a bit more run in? I've been trying it out on all kinds of music. Thanks

 
Not exactly cold and hard, but I guess I know what you mean. Yes, this trait will disappear completely after ~250 hours according to my experience.
 

  My guess would be that the inferior quality of your rbcd rips is the  real reason for the coldness and  hardness you say you hear from DAVE.
And if anything the HE1000 tends to sound a bit on the warm euphonius  side of neutral. But ever so seductively.
I played some 24/44.1 and 24/48 masterfiles via DAVE  and while they have never sounded better than via DAVE, they were still not the equal of well recorded true hi res files or DSD masters.
I can listen to well recorded DSD or 24/88.2 and up for hours and hours on end, without any listener fatique. But with 44.1  it becomes evident quite soon to me.
The most obvious difference between lower res and hi res is with strings and percussion to me.
And then of course the inferior rendition of acoustic information from the venue and less realistic decay as when  percussion decays slowly into silence, with hi res, and live, it ends more abruptly and with less body and timbre  and colour ,with 44.1 
Massed strings and solo violins tend to have a harder/colder/thinner, less timbrally realistic sound than the same at higher  pcm sampling rates or DSD to me.
Mind you, DSD 64 can sound a bit too "soft and comfy".But I can accept that softness rather  than hard/thin 44.1 string sound.

 
I almost exclusively listen to RBCD resolution recordings (mainly because the equalizer in my FiiO X5 II only works up to 48 kHz), and I can confirm that these don't sound like described (anymore). I appreciate your enthusiasm for hi-rez – which I also advocated until a few years ago –, but since the Hugo and now definitely with DAVE I don't consider it essential anymore. Linearizing my headphones for an immaculate listening experience is more important to me. Moreover my ears have grown older since, 13 kHz is the limit. That may be an explanation.
 
 
Many thanks, @Romaz, for your elaborate information. I share your love for the HE1000 (for virtually the same reasons) especially with DAVE's headphone out – and your remark about electrostats needing separate amps was spot on. That said, I still like my two electrostats, now more than ever with DAVE, but the direct connection offers an incomparable immediacy and accuracy.

 

[Kakki]

   
Yes agreed - that's the sound of Dave - very real "your there" sound.
 
Me too on the ADC (project code word Davina), its a project that I have been working on for a long time (actually the first prototype was in 2001). There are a number of key things happening that conventional ADC's don't do well - noise floor modulation, aliasing, and noise shaper resolution. The noise floor modulation issue was solved way back in 2001. Aliasing is a major problem - normal ADC decimation filters are half band, so offer worst case only -6dB rejection. But I have used -140 dB decimation filters, and can still hear the effects of aliasing. Fortunately its not difficult to design a filter that has no aliasing, its just FPGA resources. On the noise shaper side, getting Dave standard (350dB) is not a problem, I have already designed that noise shaper.
 
We will be doing test recordings later this year, so I will publish test samples too on Head-Fi. I too am very excited about the sound quality possibilities of the ADC.
 
Rob

 
Very good to hear the project Daviana progressing
 
and... is the digital amplifier project also in good state?
I really look forward to knowing about when we will be able to audition the digital amplifier paired with Dave!

 

[TheAttorney]

  Thank you.  One of the ironies of your situation is that while your SR-009/BHSE (which I used to also own) is one of the most transparent headphone setups you can buy, because you are unable to directly connect an electrostatic headphone to the DAVE without an intermediary amp, you miss out on one of the DAVE's key strengths, a strength that greatly contributes to its transparency....  Another area that needs to be considered are the interconnects you use to connect from the DAVE to the BHSE.

Yes, but that doesn't explain why I was even more underwhelmed by DAVE's headphone socket to my Sen HD600's, as compared to my Nagra CDC's built in headphone socket, which I had previously considered to be of fairly average quality.
The HD600's are only mid-level 'phones, but I have heard them scale well enough in the past with different systems.
 
At that point I was seriously considering if my sample DAVE was below spec in some way, but my dealer has told me it has blossomed in the meantime with further burn-in.
I've not yet heard any dynamic headphones that I prefer over my Stax 009's (Abyss came closest), but I remain intrigued that the DAVE, directly driving something like an LCD4 or HE1000, holds the potential of equal or better sound, because such a solution would be so much simpler and neater - (trans)portable even, as Rob has mentioned. When I originally requested the DAVE loan, I also asked to try the LCD4's, but those sadly are hard to get - possibly due to the much discussed early reliability issues.
 
My interconnects to BHSE are the pricey Tellurium Q Black Diamond balanced, which easily beat my elderly, even pricier, Transparent Reference SE's. This being the case whether any of Nagra, Yggy or DAVE were the source DACs.

 

[Beolab]

   
During a recent listening session with a friend, we listened to the DAVE with an HE-1000, LCD-4, TH-900, Dharma, HD800 and Noble Kaiser 10 IEMs and they all sounded very good, the best that I have ever heard any of these headphones sound.  Back in November, I auditioned the DAVE connected directly (no separate amp) to an Abyss paired with a Nordost copper headphone cable and while the Abyss can benefit from more gain than the DAVE can provide with certain high dynamic range material, it was the best I had ever heard the Abyss sound.  What makes the HE-1000 special for me is the "air" it presents, better than any other headphone I've heard and as you know, it does it naturally and with any DAC.  The soundstage is not larger, at least not HD800 large, but the space around instruments and voices is just intoxicatingly good.  It is an ethereal quality that can sometimes make the HE-1000 sound soft and too polite but with complex material with many layers of instruments and voices, nothing layers better to my ears than the HE-1000.  Because the DAVE presents this wonderful sense of depth, the HE-1000 plays exquisitely to this strength.
 
With the DAVE, because the DAC is no longer the limiting factor, the DAVE will expose the limits of your digital file, amplifier (if you're using one), your headphone cable and your headphone. Does the HE-1000 have issues resolving densely scored classical music?  I believe so and some of this is fixable and some of this is not.  With material that contains sharp transitions and a commanding leading edge (ie violins), the softness of the HE-1000 can come across as "lack of resolution" and there is nothing you can do about this but this is why people sometimes own several headphones and this is why I have an HD800S on order.  However, there are also perceived resolution issues because of the shortcomings of its stock copper headphone cable and this can be resolved.  Swap out the stock cable for something like the DHC Silver Spore4 and I think some of your complaints might just disappear. Silver (over copper) is known for its speed and resolution but at the expense of tonal body, especially in the lower frequencies to the extent that it can sound thin and bass shy but also "hyper" and unnatural.  This is what I am experiencing with my Moon Audio Silver Dragon.  With the Silver Spore4, however, you get all the resolution and speed that silver is known for but because the Silver Spore4 uses continuous cast (and not stranded) UPOCC grade silver (the purest you can buy) and because of the special dielectrics that Peter Bradstock uses, there is a smooth, quiet, relaxed and effortless quality to the presentation instead of the "hyper" quality that can come across as thin and harsh with other silver cables.  With the Silver Spore4, aside from its high cost, I have found no downside, and with special adapters, I am able to use this cable for my TH-900 and the HD800S that I have coming in.

 
romaz do you had the time / possibility to compare the JPS Labs Superconductor HP with the DHC Spore4 yet, or anyone else ?
 
I have heard both good and bad impressions of the SuperConductor HP cable.
I have only listen to it one time briefly, and it got a little more control in the presentation, but it was very subtle if any vs the the stock cable, but other than that i think it was hard to hear any other greatness ??
 
I will take it home in 2 weeks an see what it can bring to the table.

 

[lovethatsound]

Ok guy's this is my honest opinion about the Daves headphone output
Headphones being used are the hd600 but mainly the hd800 with cardas clear cable,Daves headphone output is great with the hd800 as I've mentioned before and i suppose most users would be really happy with it,but like I've also said before after listening to the hdvd800,with the hd800 in balance mode I'd say it sounds slightly better using the hdvd800 amp,and this is how i listen with my headphone setup now.

 

[JaZZ]

Ok guy's this is my honest opinion about the Daves headphone output
Headphones being used are the hd600 but mainly the hd800 with cardas clear cable,Daves headphone output is great with the hd800 as I've mentioned before and i suppose most users would be really happy with it,but like I've also said before after listening to the hdvd800,with the hd800 in balance mode I'd say it sounds slightly better using the hdvd800 amp,and this is how i listen with my headphone setup now.

 
And what if you increase the bass (e.g. by 0.6 dB at 30 Hz) according to the effect from the HDVD 800's output impedance?
 
From an objective point of view the sound directly from the headphone out is the most honest, an amp will use the very same signal and stamp its own sonic signature/coloration (= harmonic-distortion pattern) onto it. The only imponderability is balanced drive.

 

[STR-1]

Yes, I believe so.  Very few pieces of electronic gear that I know of sound their best with so few hours.  Same thing applies to cables.  Unfortunately, I think you will need to run your DAVE continuously for a week before to be able to judge it fairly and it's not clear if you can keep it that long.  Most definitely, "cold and hard" are not accurate descriptors for the DAVE paired with the HE-1000.

My guess would be that the inferior quality of your rbcd rips is the  real reason for the coldness and  hardness you say you hear from DAVE.
And if anything the HE1000 tends to sound a bit on the warm euphonius  side of neutral. But ever so seductively.
I played some 24/44.1 and 24/48 masterfiles via DAVE  and while they have never sounded better than via DAVE, they were still not the equal of well recorded true hi res files or DSD masters.
I can listen to well recorded DSD or 24/88.2 and up for hours and hours on end, without any listener fatique. But with 44.1  it becomes evident quite soon to me.
The most obvious difference between lower res and hi res is with strings and percussion to me.
And then of course the inferior rendition of acoustic information from the venue and less realistic decay as when  percussion decays slowly into silence, with hi res, and live, it ends more abruptly and with less body and timbre  and colour ,with 44.1 
Massed strings and solo violins tend to have a harder/colder/thinner, less timbrally realistic sound than the same at higher  pcm sampling rates or DSD to me.
Mind you, DSD 64 can sound a bit too "soft and comfy".But I can accept that softness rather  than hard/thin 44.1 string sound.

Not exactly cold and hard, but I guess I know what you mean. Yes, this trait will disappear completely after ~250 hours according to my experience.

Thanks guys. I'll run it continuously for as long as I can and see how it goes. Cheers

 

[lovethatsound]

Optical cables
I'VE spent all morning trying 4 different optical cables out with the Dave to see if i could hear any difference in sound with the Dave,the most expensive one being the super nova 7,and the cheapest one being the pro-signal,the one you get with Dave and the Hugo.1st let me say that when i was using the Hugo as desktop Dac i could easily tell the difference,the super nova 7 being alot better,but after hours of trying all 4 optical cables out with Dave i can safely say that they all sounded the SAME.So save yourselfs some money if you have a Dave, because Rob Watts has worked some magic here.

 

[lovethatsound]

And what if you increase the bass (e.g. by 0.6 dB at 30 Hz) according to the effect from the HDVD 800's output impedance?

From an objective point of view the sound directly from the headphone out is the most honest, an amp will use the very same signal and stamp its own sonic signature/coloration (= harmonic-distortion pattern) onto it. The only imponderability is balanced drive.

Hi JaZZ
I can only tell you what my ears tell me,and my ears tell me that the Dave sounds slightly better,a bit more real when I'm using my amp with it☺

 

[JaZZ]

Hi JaZZ
I can only tell you what my ears tell me,and my ears tell me that the Dave sounds slightly better,a bit more real when I'm using my amp with it☺

 
That I don't question. I'm just trying to find out the cause. You know that the HDVD uses a high output impedance (45 ohms or so?) meant to increase the bass according to the HD 800's impedance curve. So what if you do the same (increase the bass) on DAVE's zero-ohm output? (Or alternatively switch two 47-ohm resistors in series to the HD 800.)

 

[Kamil21]

The April edition of HiFi News seems to think that it si worth comparing Dave to theClearAudio Statement turntable.

 

[lovethatsound]

The April edition of HiFi News seems to think that it si worth comparing Dave to theClearAudio Statement turntable.

it's out on the 11th March

 

[romaz]

  Got a link to the ant-vibrating plate ?
 

 
Yes, here it is including a few more photos and a review:
 
https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/underboard/tb-38h.html
 
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/acoustic-revive-tb-38-rst-38-raf-4.html
 
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/acoustic_revive.htm
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Acoustic-Revive-TB38H-TB-38H-Quartz-Isolation-Under-Board-Power-Supply-Tap/331765622373?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35852%26meid%3D0c80dd52cf864fb69e0fd12dd3715d07%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D141905879349
 

 

 
Here's the larger model with air suspension.  Note the high quality finish.  Wood is birch plywood from Finland:
 

 

[Beolab]

The April edition of HiFi News seems to think that it si worth comparing Dave to theClearAudio Statement turntable.

This is huge, and a must-read review!

Here we can buy the digital HiFi News version @ the 11th of March :

http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/browser/985/back-issues

 

[romaz]

  Yes, but that doesn't explain why I was even more underwhelmed by DAVE's headphone socket to my Sen HD600's, as compared to my Nagra CDC's built in headphone socket, which I had previously considered to be of fairly average quality.
The HD600's are only mid-level 'phones, but I have heard them scale well enough in the past with different systems.
 
At that point I was seriously considering if my sample DAVE was below spec in some way, but my dealer has told me it has blossomed in the meantime with further burn-in.
I've not yet heard any dynamic headphones that I prefer over my Stax 009's (Abyss came closest), but I remain intrigued that the DAVE, directly driving something like an LCD4 or HE1000, holds the potential of equal or better sound, because such a solution would be so much simpler and neater - (trans)portable even, as Rob has mentioned. When I originally requested the DAVE loan, I also asked to try the LCD4's, but those sadly are hard to get - possibly due to the much discussed early reliability issues.
 
My interconnects to BHSE are the pricey Tellurium Q Black Diamond balanced, which easily beat my elderly, even pricier, Transparent Reference SE's. This being the case whether any of Nagra, Yggy or DAVE were the source DACs.

I forgot you have an HD600.  That was my first audiophile class headphone and I'd still own it if it didn't break because it's a keeper.  You're right, this headphone scales very well and should have no problems revealing the qualities of the DAVE so all the more interesting that you preferred your Nagra CDC's built-in headphone socket to the DAVE when it really should be no contest.  Having now heard my HE-1000 through the headphone port of the more capable Nagra HD, my opinion is that I easily prefer the DAVE.  My only thought is give a well broken-in DAVE another shot but undoubtedly, you have to go with what your ears are telling you.
 
Regarding your interconnects, obviously this is not what is holding back your system.
 
Regarding how a DAC should sound and some may disagree but my feeling on this is that it should only sound one way for each of us and that personal preference should have less to do with it.  Regardless of whether you are a novice listener or a seasoned and discerning audiophile such as yourself, a DAC is either faithful to the full virtues of the recording or it is not.  The music either sounds real or it does not and while your headphones and amp have some role in this, I am finding that the DAC perhaps has the biggest say in it provided that you are starting out with a good digital file.  With DACs, I also don't buy into the idea that you have to have some proverbial golden ear to appreciate its finer qualities because as humans, even if age has hampered our hearing to some extent, we each have an innate qualitative sense of correctness and what sounds natural even if we can't articulate it as well as others.  As the old saying goes, it's like pornography, you can't quite define it in words but you know it when you see it, or with music, you know it when you hear it.  If it takes hours or days, then its probably not there.
 
Of course, there is the topic of coloration and preferred style of presentation and this is not the same thing as the whether music sounds real or not.  There are some that prefer the fast, focused and full bodied acoustics of the Alice Tully Hall in New York compared to the more bloomy presentation of Carnegie Hall.  There are also some that prefer acoustical music in an intimate setting compared to amplified music in an arena and sometimes, this has more to do with your mood on a certain day, but this is why we own multiple recordings of Mahler's 8th symphony performed in different venues or why we roll out the 300Bs from our tube amp and replace them with 2A3s.  It's why some of us own a more laid back Audeze LCD-3 in addition to a more analytical HD800 or a basshead TH-900.  In my view, coloration belongs to almost any other piece of equipment in our audio chain but not the DAC. The DAC just has to be faithful to the recording.  It has to sound analog.
 
Regarding the specific virtues of the DAVE and what makes it so special, there are already so many people who have chimed in on this but I will sum up in one word what makes the DAVE special for me -- "timing."  Time resolution impacts almost everything.  It impacts tone and timbre.  It can tell you that the lead violinist is playing a Guarneri and not a Stadivarius.  It tells you where your woodwind section is in the orchestra relative to the horns and and how many rows of woodwinds are present.  Because higher pitched voices reach your ears sooner than lower pitched ones, you are aware you are listening to a thousand voices in the choir.  When time resolution is there, then music is an onion, full of layers.  As I've learned to appreciate the qualities that DACs provide, the one quality I have found that has been most difficult for a DAC to recreate is space.  In the same way that a saxophone can only sound good when it breathes, music has to be able to breathe to sound good.  We talk about soundstage width and height but without depth, then the music is flat, and its not something you can convincingly fix by adjusting the reverb on an EQ .  It is this singular feature that differentiated the more basic $10K TotalDac d1-dual from the more sublime $25k TotalDac d1-monobloc and it was enough of a difference for me to spend the extra money. It is this same special quality that has lead me to the DAVE and thus far, I have not heard another DAC do this better.