Nov 22, 2015 at 3:26 PM Post #751 of 27,016
  Having read @Rob Watts' comments a few times, and thinking about lovethatsound's current use of Chord Blu upsampling to 176kHz to the Chord QBD76, while waiting for the DAVE, I wonder if I were playing CD quality materials at 44.1kHz from my dedicated desktop off JRiver, whether I should always upsample to 176kHz with the JRiver SSRC algorithm to improve performance of my Chord QBD76HDSD. If the increased upsampling (2048fs) of the Hugo and DAVE is a primary contributor to improved timing performance and Chord Blu's standard connection to Chord QBD76 is to upsample the CD data to 176kHz (4fs?), wouldn't the optimal USB input of CD data into the Chord QBD76HDSD also be to upsample the 44kHz to 176kHz (assuming the upsampling algorithm is good)? So far, listening to the two different ways of playing music, 176kHz upsampling does sound better but it maybe confirmation bias.
 
I can actually see this principle apply to some DACs but not others depending on the DAC design (and upsampling algorithm used off the computer). For example, you wouldn't want to do this if you already have a DAC with an apodizing filter or your DAC always converts the final output to DSD64/DSD128. But if you have an NOS DAC, you may want to upsample to the highest sample rate the DAC can handle unless the DAC already upsamples, e.g. Schiit Yggradasil.

 
But the implication of Rob's design thought is that 44.1 is good enough, as the DAC gets nearer to the ideal, the sampling rate becomes less important. This is, as I understand it, why 44.1 sounds closer to the higher sampling rates/upsampled files as the taps are increased. Ultimately, as Rob has said, an infinite tap length filter reconstitutes the original sample perfectly. As an infinite tap length also, I think, implies an infinite sampling delay, the perfect DAC is only mathematical. But we don't need perfect, just a DAC that surpasses our ear/brain sensitivity.
 
I also have a BLU and an Indigo with the HDSD upgrade. I find it quite difficult to tell the difference between a single optical connection at 88.2 vs AES dual data. I run dual data mode with AES simply because I made my own connectors from certified AES cable and I use the Indigo optical input for my DAB tuner. I can't tell the difference between my AES cable and expensive (£2k) cables although A/B'ing is more difficult.
 
I think clicks and pops and interference via coax are nonsense, if the cable is as specified and terminated correctly there won't be any clicks and pops unless something else is fundamentally wrong. Again, I had expensive coax cable and could hear no difference between my AES cables and coax in dual data mode - I sold the coax. All of this is with the QBD76 or Indigo, with the DAC64 I found dual data to clearly be a better solution and thought that the coax sounded better - marginally and subjectively.
 
One caveat, I have done a simple electrical installation (around £200) that made a significant difference to the sound of my hifi, no clicks or pops at all. Before this I could hear cable differences including mains cables - but not now :-)
 
Finally, the BLU upsamples to a single AES/coax/TOSlink connection too albeit at 88.2.
 
H.
 
Nov 22, 2015 at 4:41 PM Post #752 of 27,016
But the implication of Rob's design thought is that 44.1 is good enough, as the DAC gets nearer to the ideal, the sampling rate becomes less important. This is, as I understand it, why 44.1 sounds closer to the higher sampling rates/upsampled files as the taps are increased. Ultimately, as Rob has said, an infinite tap length filter reconstitutes the original sample perfectly. As an infinite tap length also, I think, implies an infinite sampling delay, the perfect DAC is only mathematical. But we don't need perfect, just a DAC that surpasses our ear/brain sensitivity.

I also have a BLU and an Indigo with the HDSD upgrade. I find it quite difficult to tell the difference between a single optical connection at 88.2 vs AES dual data. I run dual data mode with AES simply because I made my own connectors from certified AES cable and I use the Indigo optical input for my DAB tuner. I can't tell the difference between my AES cable and expensive (£2k) cables although A/B'ing is more difficult.

I think clicks and pops and interference via coax are nonsense, if the cable is as specified and terminated correctly there won't be any clicks and pops unless something else is fundamentally wrong. Again, I had expensive coax cable and could hear no difference between my AES cables and coax in dual data mode - I sold the coax. All of this is with the QBD76 or Indigo, with the DAC64 I found dual data to clearly be a better solution and thought that the coax sounded better - marginally and subjectively.

One caveat, I have done a simple electrical installation (around £200) that made a significant difference to the sound of my hifi, no clicks or pops at all. Before this I could hear cable differences including mains cables - but not now :-)

Finally, the BLU upsamples to a single AES/coax/TOSlink connection too albeit at 88.2.

H.
I'm afraid clicks and pops is not nonsense with coax when using the new generation of dac from chord eg,Hugo,2 Qute and mojo.somewhere on the 2 Qute thread this is also mentioned,and I'm sure it's been mentioned on the mojo thread as well.If you use optical it doesn't happen,only when you use coax.let me explain,if you turn on or off a piece of equipment you will hear a click over your music,the same if you plug something in or out.like i say this only happens with coax.For some reason the new generation of chord dacs seam to be picking up interference when using coax.And by the way i know it's not an earthing problem at my end,i also know other people have had the same problem.
 
Nov 22, 2015 at 5:42 PM Post #753 of 27,016
Rob, I strongly suspect that, no matter how good DAVE sounds, it will very probably sound exponentially better than audiophiles are accustomed to, once you have finalised an ADC using the same approach. Then the timing accuracy will be probably be substantially better than anything yet achieved in digital music recording and playback.
 
If you'll forgive the simplistic analogy;  instead of 1 + 1 sounding as good as 2, I will not be surprised if your ADC (1)  +  DAVE DAC (1) ends up yielding a result sounding as (subjectively) good as 3, 4, or even 5!
 
Nov 22, 2015 at 8:32 PM Post #754 of 27,016
An interesting experiment would be to playback music using DAVE with XX High End playback software. The Phasure NOS DACs are R2R ladder DACs specifically designed to pair with XXHE software. XXHE can upsample to 768kHz, however, until now it appears that the Phasure DACs were the only ones that could take advantage of that degree of upsampling. And then DAVE came along...
 
Nov 22, 2015 at 11:27 PM Post #755 of 27,016
An interesting experiment would be to playback music using DAVE with XX High End playback software. The Phasure NOS DACs are R2R ladder DACs specifically designed to pair with XXHE software. XXHE can upsample to 768kHz, however, until now it appears that the Phasure DACs were the only ones that could take advantage of that degree of upsampling. And then DAVE came along...

 
Oh dear. Do NOT use your computer to up-sample or change the data when you use one of my DAC's.
 
All competent DAC's up-sample and filter internally; the issue is how well that filtering is done, in terms of how well the timing of transients is reconstructed from the original analogue. Computers are poor devices to use for manipulating data in real time as they are concurrent serial devices  - everything has to go through one to 8 processors in sequence. With hardware and FPGA's you do not need to do that, you can do thousands of operations in parallel. Dave has 166 DSP cores with each core being able to do one FIR tap in one clock cycle. That is incredibly powerful processing power way more powerful than a PC.
 
But its not just about raw processing power but the algorithm for the filter. The WTA filter is the only algorithm that has been designed to reduce timing of transients errors, and the only one that has been optimised by thousands of listening tests.
 
Rob
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 2:02 AM Post #756 of 27,016
Hi Rob, i realy apprichiate your effort if you could lend me the watts figur in
@46 and 50 Ohms , i would be very pleased!

So AES/EBU are not as good as BNC thats controversial to many on this forum i think, but you learn something new every day;)

The best connection is still Optical Toslink over I2s , AES/EBU , BNC coax if you have to choose one?


With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling.
 
I have done some measurements:
 
1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300 ohm (154 mW)
1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33 ohm (1.4W)
 
Output impedance post plug is 55 milli ohms, or damping factor of 145.
 
At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 300 ohms THD is 0.000016% (-136dB relative to 2.5v RMS)
 
At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 33 ohms THD is 0.000059% (-124.6dB relative to 2.5v RMS)
 
So for your 46 ohms power will be 1W RMS.
 
Rob
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 3:24 AM Post #757 of 27,016
 
With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling.
 
I have done some measurements:
 
1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300 ohm (154 mW)
1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33 ohm (1.4W)
 
Output impedance post plug is 55 milli ohms, or damping factor of 145.
 
At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 300 ohms THD is 0.000016% (-136dB relative to 2.5v RMS)
 
At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 33 ohms THD is 0.000059% (-124.6dB relative to 2.5v RMS)
 
So for your 46 ohms power will be 1W RMS.
 
Rob

 
Thanks Rob.
 
So it should be OK to drive a HE1000 with some authority ?
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 5:38 AM Post #759 of 27,016
Hello Rob, you mentioned you were off to Asia with a production DAVE. When and where? I was at the Adelphi in Singapore obviously a bit late  this time after the Mojo demo . I'd love to audition Dave ,there or in KL where I will  be next week after leaving Sri Lanka.
Meanwhile I am a bit tempted to buy HIFIMAN 1000 headphones which sounded pretty impressive via my  HUGO I must say.
A bit smoother than I am used to with my HD800 on strings and very clear and  clean transients although maybe  a bit lacking in air compared to my HD800.
It would be really nice to hear how DAVE handles  some of my favourite  classical music  masterfiles.
Cheers Chris
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 6:22 AM Post #760 of 27,016

Yes I start my travels with a production Dave this Wed:
 
Singapore show at Parkroyal, 28-30 Nov
Manilla 1 and 2 Dec
San Francisco dealer event at Audio Vision on 3 Dec
Indonesia Mook Headphone show (afternoon 6 Dec only)
Malaysia KL 9 Dec
Singapore Mook headphone show 11-13 Dec
 
Rob
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 9:50 AM Post #761 of 27,016
Hello again Rob, and thanks for your response .It sure  looks like you have quite a busy  time coming up.
I can't say I envy you flying from Asia to San Francisco and then back again within days.
Unfortunately it seems  like I will miss these events, unless I can change one of my next flights. I am flying out from Sri Lanka to KL on the 30th of November and then onwards from there on the 7th December  to Thailand.
Where in KL on the 9th?
I know Park Royal in Singapore having stayed there several times,but I don't think I can change my ticket from Colombo to KL to an earlier date.But I will try.
Anyway I will  as usual when visiting Singapore or KL, get a dose of live classical concerts in KL on the 3rd and  5th and 6th December. The so often overlooked point of reference and calibration.
Maybe I will be back in Singapore for the Can Jam in Februari. Will you be there with Dave then?
Back on topic of headphones and HUGO this time again. Would you recommend HE1000 as a good match for HUGO?
I really liked how natural  and realistic strings sounded via those headphones and was  I  was also quite impressed  by how well normally  difficult to reproduce, percussive instruments where rendered. 
They seemed a bit harder to drive than my HD 800 and I had to raise levels into blue on most tracks I heard during the 2 hours I listened at Sound and Vision at the Adelphi.
With my HD 800 I almost always stay within green level on my HUGO.
PS How is the ADC  you mentioned working on,  progressing?
Chris
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 9:55 AM Post #762 of 27,016
Joined this forum specifically to comment on my limited listening to Dave at the National Audio Show-I asked the guys at Fanthorpe's to put some "busy" music on that wasn't the usual demo fare and they kindly obliged at a quiet time with some of Clutch's rock-wow! This was definitely not a "HiFi" recording but it rocked-great headroom, great depth, separation and tonality was spot on. The Fanthorpe's guys were concerned the music would deter people but the room filled again: I think people were amazed to hear what they thought was a live band...! I haven't got any Chord product yet but this is now on my have-to-have list. It played high-res files via a Melco through PMC fact 8's I think.
I am new to the digital files world and I would be using the Dave initially to better my CD replay, of which I have no intention of getting rid of and I think the humble silver disc is finally realising its full potential thanks to engineers and artisans like Rob Watts.
It took me years to accept CD's and reluctantly I moved/was forced to buy on CD but it was clear to me that the music had too much missing compare to analogue but now I am a CD convert just as they are dying it seems.
As a newbie,, I have limits to my profile and posts so it may be worthwhile stating that I currently have as my main rig Bryston/PMC/Atlas gear with an additional McIntosh MCD550 for (disappointing) SACD replay.
Rob's presence and contributions here are really appreciated and enjoyed-thank you, Rob!
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 10:40 AM Post #763 of 27,016
Welcome to Head-Fi!
beerchug.gif

 
Nov 23, 2015 at 10:51 AM Post #764 of 27,016
With Dave the best input (by a tiny margin) is USB, then optical is very close. The BNC/AES depends upon the source and cabling.

I have done some measurements:

1% THD 6.8v RMS with 300 ohm (154 mW)
1% THD 6.8v RMS with 33 ohm (1.4W)

Output impedance post plug is 55 milli ohms, or damping factor of 145.

At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 300 ohms THD is 0.000016% (-136dB relative to 2.5v RMS)

At 1kHz 2.5v RMS 33 ohms THD is 0.000059% (-124.6dB relative to 2.5v RMS)

So for your 46 ohms power will be 1W RMS.

Rob


Thanks alot @Rob Watts !

So its like twice as powerful as the Hugo in 46 Ohms then?

Whats is the max SPL in 46Ohms / 85 db sensitivity ?
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 10:58 AM Post #765 of 27,016
Joined this forum specifically to comment on my limited listening to Dave at the National Audio Show-I asked the guys at Fanthorpe's to put some "busy" music on that wasn't the usual demo fare and they kindly obliged at a quiet time with some of Clutch's rock-wow! This was definitely not a "HiFi" recording but it rocked-great headroom, great depth, separation and tonality was spot on. The Fanthorpe's guys were concerned the music would deter people but the room filled again: I think people were amazed to hear what they thought was a live band...! I haven't got any Chord product yet but this is now on my have-to-have list. It played high-res files via a Melco through PMC fact 8's I think.
I am new to the digital files world and I would be using the Dave initially to better my CD replay, of which I have no intention of getting rid of and I think the humble silver disc is finally realising its full potential thanks to engineers and artisans like Rob Watts.
It took me years to accept CD's and reluctantly I moved/was forced to buy on CD but it was clear to me that the music had too much missing compare to analogue but now I am a CD convert just as they are dying it seems.
As a newbie,, I have limits to my profile and posts so it may be worthwhile stating that I currently have as my main rig Bryston/PMC/Atlas gear with an additional McIntosh MCD550 for (disappointing) SACD replay.
Rob's presence and contributions here are really appreciated and enjoyed-thank you, Rob!

Great review, welcome to Head Fi!
Hopefully an announcement will be made when shipping for the Dave Dac happens.
 

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