CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
Nov 29, 2017 at 4:56 AM Post #9,391 of 25,902
What USB cable have you guys felt a definite improvement on the Dave with? or does adding ferrites to the standard USB cable help achieve similar results?

I have listened to a number of USB cables, and they either:
1. Sound identical to a quality but inexpensive USB cable.
OR in the case of some "audiophile" USB cables:
2. Significantly deteriorate the SQ as the RF characteristics of the USB cable are poor. So the effect is too add more RF, giving a brighter SQ, which can easily fool the listener that it is more transparent. But it simply is increasing the RF noise levels, and hence increasing noise floor modulation.

I have heard no benefit on using ferrites on USB too. YMWV of course...

On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:

http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektro...ey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search

These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.
 
Nov 29, 2017 at 6:45 AM Post #9,392 of 25,902
I have listened to a number of USB cables, and they either:
1. Sound identical to a quality but inexpensive USB cable.
OR in the case of some "audiophile" USB cables:
2. Significantly deteriorate the SQ as the RF characteristics of the USB cable are poor. So the effect is too add more RF, giving a brighter SQ, which can easily fool the listener that it is more transparent. But it simply is increasing the RF noise levels, and hence increasing noise floor modulation.

I have heard no benefit on using ferrites on USB too. YMWV of course...

On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:

http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektronik/74271633s/ferrite-core-split-8mm-100-ohm/dp/1635622?ost=74271633&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search

These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.

Thanks for the thoughts on different ferrites for the Blu2 Dave bnc cable. I am inclined to try some having previously tried the other Wurth ferrites (I have found a supplier somewhat cheaper than Farnell).
How many of the revised suggested ferrites were you using?
 
Nov 29, 2017 at 9:48 AM Post #9,393 of 25,902
I wish they published impedance curves out to 2 or 3 GHz it is hard to tell which would be better at 2GHz the Wurth’s or the Fair Rite 61’s? Both seem to have an impedance over 400 ohms at 1GHz. I talked to a Fair Rite application engineer and (of course) he felt the Fair Rite split cores have less permeability and would be superior at 2GHz at any rate I ordered a bunch of the Fair Rites at $3 each and no key is required so let’s see
 
Nov 29, 2017 at 12:16 PM Post #9,394 of 25,902
These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.

Rob, did you find you needed fewer ferrites with these higher impedance ferrites? What's the point of diminishing returns for the necklace?
 
Nov 29, 2017 at 5:14 PM Post #9,395 of 25,902
On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:

http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektronik/74271633s/ferrite-core-split-8mm-100-ohm/dp/1635622?ost=74271633&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search

These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.
It's interesting that you've come up with such a specific frequency! Have you been using your test equipment to characterise the effect of the design of each ferrite on a broad spectrum of noise?

Isn't that frequency typically associated with Wi-fi?

This document:

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Wurth Electronics PDFs/STAR-GAP.pdf

seems to imply that the "defined air gap" is a key aspect to achieve high-frequency filtering. Does the air gap mean that the two halves of ferrite material don't actually touch? I can't understand why the air gap is relevant here...

Now playing: Chris Anderson - Too Late Now
 
Nov 29, 2017 at 8:07 PM Post #9,396 of 25,902
It's based upon listening tests, and a thorough re-think as to what is going on.

We have two SQ differences - improved warmth, and improved soundstage depth. The high frequency ferrites don't improve warmth so much (it's pretty much the same), but they improve depth much more. And there are reasons for this. Depth changes are due to signal correlated RF noise which gets into Dave's ground plane, then is demodulated by the analogue electronics. One thing I know from the Dave development is that the perception of depth has no limit to how small these effects may be; in other words, small signal amplitude accuracy has to be perfect. Any change in small signal accuracy no matter how small is audible - and frankly that's really weird and very strange when you think about it. Warmth on the other hand is just any random RF noise, creating intermodulation (with the wanted audio signal) products in the analogue electronics, these intermod products are random noise, and hence we get noise floor modulation, and that's the source of the brightness.

Now with digital electronics we have something called ground bounce. This is current from switching activity within the FPGA or chip that goes into ground, and this current causes the ground wires (and ground plane as a ground plane has inductance too) to bounce up and down due to the ground inductance. We have two forms of noise - clock noise, which for the M scaler is 208 MHz; and noise due to logic level transitions as the internal data signal propagates through the FPGA gates. These delays are from 100pS to 500pS, so are in the 1 to 5GHz region - centred around 2 GHz. This noise (unlike clock noise) is signal correlated, and this would explain why use of 2GHz ferrites improves depth perception. Also, the galvanic isolation is effective at 208 MHz, but is ten times less effective at 2 GHz.

As to the air gap - perhaps this improves the ferrites parasitic capacitance; it's the parasitic capacitance that reduces the effectiveness of the ferrite at higher frequencies - if there was no parasitic capacitance on ferrites or on the galvanic isolation, we would not be having this sensitivity in the first place.

Rob
 
Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 AM Post #9,397 of 25,902
It's based upon listening tests, and a thorough re-think as to what is going on.

We have two SQ differences - improved warmth, and improved soundstage depth. The high frequency ferrites don't improve warmth so much (it's pretty much the same), but they improve depth much more. And there are reasons for this. Depth changes are due to signal correlated RF noise which gets into Dave's ground plane, then is demodulated by the analogue electronics. One thing I know from the Dave development is that the perception of depth has no limit to how small these effects may be; in other words, small signal amplitude accuracy has to be perfect. Any change in small signal accuracy no matter how small is audible - and frankly that's really weird and very strange when you think about it. Warmth on the other hand is just any random RF noise, creating intermodulation (with the wanted audio signal) products in the analogue electronics, these intermod products are random noise, and hence we get noise floor modulation, and that's the source of the brightness.

Now with digital electronics we have something called ground bounce. This is current from switching activity within the FPGA or chip that goes into ground, and this current causes the ground wires (and ground plane as a ground plane has inductance too) to bounce up and down due to the ground inductance. We have two forms of noise - clock noise, which for the M scaler is 208 MHz; and noise due to logic level transitions as the internal data signal propagates through the FPGA gates. These delays are from 100pS to 500pS, so are in the 1 to 5GHz region - centred around 2 GHz. This noise (unlike clock noise) is signal correlated, and this would explain why use of 2GHz ferrites improves depth perception. Also, the galvanic isolation is effective at 208 MHz, but is ten times less effective at 2 GHz.

As to the air gap - perhaps this improves the ferrites parasitic capacitance; it's the parasitic capacitance that reduces the effectiveness of the ferrite at higher frequencies - if there was no parasitic capacitance on ferrites or on the galvanic isolation, we would not be having this sensitivity in the first place.

Rob
According to an applications engineer at Fair Rite the split in a split core vs a solid cylinder decreases permeability decreasing the filters Q and increasing its HF impedance. So for this application the split core is the better choice
 
Nov 30, 2017 at 12:41 PM Post #9,398 of 25,902
On the subject of ferrites, I have found that these sound marginally better for the Blu Dave:
http://uk.farnell.com/wurth-elektronik/74271633s/ferrite-core-split-8mm-100-ohm/dp/1635622?ost=74271633&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http:en-GB/Element14_United_Kingdom/search
These ferrites have higher impedance at 2.5 GHz than the other ferrites, and it's actually this frequency range that seems to be the key problem area. If you buy from Farnell, the keys to remove them are sold separately.

I was intrigued by the 2.5Ghz spec, so I ordered 5 from Farnell UK yesterday afternoon and they arrived today! Amazing considering it was "free" delivery.

Unfortunately I had a doh! moment and ordered the wrong size (8mm) which was too small for my 10mm-ish USB cable, so instead I added the new ferrites onto my Supra CAT8.
This already had 8 x Wurth 1Ghz plus 8 x el-cheapo ferrites (which presumably cover a lower frequency range). I didn't really want to add yet more ferrites to this cable, so I simply replaced 5 el-cheapos with 5 Wurth 2.5Ghz. All at the destination end of the cable (microRendu). And wonder of wonders, I immediately heard improvements of the same type as before - the very first thing I noticed was an increase in depth and image 3D-ness, which is always welcome with my headphones. Caveat: I've only listened to a few tracks for a few minutes before writing this, so this isn't conclusive, but I felt the improvement was obvious enough that I didn't need to go through those tedious A/B swap comparisons.

That quick test also told me that the spec of the ferrite really does matter, with the potential of being able to reduce the total number of ferrites (I'll start trying that in the future, but for now now I'll just enjoy the music).
I've now ordered 5 x 12.5mm size (the only other size listed) that will fit my USB cable.

I would class the improvement of this change as somewhat above "marginally better", but then my source components are very different to Rob's (and I don't have a Blu2), so as always YMMV.

EDIT: When I had written the above, I had not seen Rob's last post explaining why the Ghz range matters. So I'm pleased that my comments about depth improvement coincides with a scientific explanantion. Althought this is without a BLU2 in the chain. What I don't know is if this ferrite improvement is affecting DAVE's performance or microRendu's?
 
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Dec 1, 2017 at 12:40 PM Post #9,399 of 25,902
Oh well, I finally gave in and after I sold enough stuff to fully finance a move up from my trusty (beloved actually) Hugo TT to a good minty pre-owned DAVE from the for sale-forum here on head-fi.
So could I ask a favor of answers to some questions? Thanks in advance.
1. If I ever need service, can I get it?
2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?
3. Can I just use the same Windows 10 driver software I use for my TT? I am using USB input.
4. If I ever want to get a stand, how should I go about this (and do people here use the stand)?
5. The manual warns that you should always power up a Dave before powering up a connected amp (headphone amp in my case). True?
6. Any important operational tips I should know about? My Hugo and Hugo TT just seemed to be plug and play pretty much, so is the DAVE more temperamental?
(I am planning on using my external headphone amp to compare it with direct headphone use. I always liked the sound better this way with my Hugo and Hugo TT. But I have an open mind on this.)
 
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Dec 1, 2017 at 12:53 PM Post #9,400 of 25,902
3. Can I just use the same Windows 10 driver software I use for my TT? I am using USB input.
You should install the Mojo/DAVE driver. The TT driver doesn't need to be uninstalled.

If you want to change the display mode of the display, the option for this only appears if headphones are not plugged in. If you want to set crossfeed, you must have headphones plugged in. If you want to turn off crossfeed you must have headphones plugged in.

Crossfeed, affects the RCA and balanced outputs on the back of DAVE. This makes it possible to play DAVE into a speaker system and accidentally have crossfeed switched on. The display will not show you that you are making this error... This does mean that crossfeed will work with your headphone amplifier.

Have fun, it'll blow you away. For maximum sound quality I hope you will spend the small amount of money and time finding out whether ferrites work for you. They're too cheap to ignore.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/does-chord-dave-system-need-a-dcc.809287/#post-13799263

Now playing: Sun Kil Moon - Lucky Man
 
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Dec 1, 2017 at 1:38 PM Post #9,401 of 25,902
1. If I ever need service, can I get it?
Yes, of course. In your case it's probably best to contact Chord Electronics for that.

2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?
I would think so. I have mine two years now and never had a problem. Save for some (very rare) unidentified unheralded phenomena in the form of self-acting volume regulations (mostly down, fortunately).

5. The manual warns that you should always power up a Dave before powering up a connected amp (headphone amp in my case). True?
Yes, that's an important rule, particularly with power amps. Less obligatory with headphone amps whose volume is attenuated. Also, never shut the DAVE down while music is still playing! It's best to power your power amp down before the DAVE.
 
Dec 1, 2017 at 2:24 PM Post #9,402 of 25,902
Oh well, I finally gave in and after I sold enough stuff to fully finance a move up from my trusty (beloved actually) Hugo TT to a good minty pre-owned DAVE from the for sale-forum here on head-fi.
So could I ask a favor of answers to some questions? Thanks in advance.
1. If I ever need service, can I get it?
2. Is the Dave as rock solid reliable as my Hugo and Hugo TT have been for years?
3. Can I just use the same Windows 10 driver software I use for my TT? I am using USB input.
4. If I ever want to get a stand, how should I go about this (and do people here use the stand)?
5. The manual warns that you should always power up a Dave before powering up a connected amp (headphone amp in my case). True?
6. Any important operational tips I should know about? My Hugo and Hugo TT just seemed to be plug and play pretty much, so is the DAVE more temperamental?
(I am planning on using my external headphone amp to compare it with direct headphone use. I always liked the sound better this way with my Hugo and Hugo TT. But I have an open mind on this.)

1. It depends on which country you are in and what might go wrong. I am sure Chord will repair if necessary but most kit such as Dave is pretty reliable.
2. No reason for it not to be.
3. Sorry cant help as I am a Mac chap.
4. I saw the stand as a glorious waste of money. Mine just sits on a table.
5. I leave my Dave powered up 24/7 and switch on my amps as and when I want to listen to music (the amps are valve / tubes).
6. Not really. Experiment with some of the settings but unless you have a pressing reason I should stick with PCM Plus. I do not regard Dave as temperamental at all.

7. Enjoy it.
 
Dec 1, 2017 at 3:55 PM Post #9,404 of 25,902
Thanks for all the tips! I need to read them over. You guys are great.
That's why i love this community. Everyone is willing to help with precious information as much as they can.
What speakers, headphones are you going to use the Dave?
And... congratulations... congratulations...for getting the best Dac at the moment:)
 

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