CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE
May 5, 2017 at 5:08 AM Post #8,446 of 25,901
Hi, I am a new member and I'm not sure why my first post above has been joined in with the post I was quoting. My post was:

Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.

On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?
 
May 5, 2017 at 5:12 AM Post #8,447 of 25,901
Does it really though?

The Xilinx Artix XC7A200T FPGA draws less than 400mA of current at peak with a 1.8V supply … Are there more than one of those chips in Blu Mk2? Or is it a typo in their published specs?

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/blu-mk-2/#techspec

The published power consumption of Blu2 is 30w which is probably more relevant to what is going on internally. On the basis that the CD mechanism is drawing a very small current then most of the power consumption is due to the electronics.
30w of heat being generated in the enclosed Blu2 box is going to get pretty hot!
By contrast, the power consumption of the Dave isn't even mentioned.
 
May 5, 2017 at 5:50 AM Post #8,448 of 25,901
The published power consumption of Blu2 is 30w which is probably more relevant to what is going on internally.
...

That would imply only slightly over 0.16Amps of current draw in a 230V AC setup (assuming a power factor of 0.8). No way the FPGA could be drawing "10Amps" of current, unless there’s a whole bank of them.

Clearly there’re some typos going on that published specs on that Blu Mk 2 web page; notice “Power Supply: 90v AC - 24v AC Auto-Switching” (there's a missing “0” for 240V).
 
May 5, 2017 at 6:21 AM Post #8,449 of 25,901
On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?

Basically it adds to the DAVE's filter and achieves 1 million TAPs with the DAVE. It's a much more complex algorithm than just up-sampling. Since the thread search function is not available with the new site format I'll copy this from Rob.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-457#post-13175616

Now that the dust has settled and I have had some time to collect my thoughts on the M scaler, I thought I would post some impressions, based on what people heard at the show.

Firstly, some background. I first heard the 512,000 tap WTA filter in late July - and was pretty much knocked out by the changes in performance, so then started work on the full M scaler, which I got to listen too in late November. The final version, once all the audibly changing bugs was fixed, was last Christmas eve. So we are talking about very recent developments.

Now part of the difficulties about designing is appreciating the scale of what one achieves. Its easy to say this improvement has this effect in SQ and sometimes it easy to get tunnel vision and to exaggerate how significant a change actually represents, and I am very aware of these dangers; ones own natural enthusiasm can let one get carried away. But assessing scale of changes is vitally important - just to give you an example, it took 3 months to code verify and test the M scaler - and this is based upon merely modifying from 512,000 to the full 1M taps. So you are making decisions that will have important SQ consequences based upon previous listening tests, so balancing the importance of different tests is crucial. I always find it amusing when a audio companies blurb talks about no compromise this or that; design is always about balancing resources to get the best performance you can; compromise, fine tuning or balancing is essential part of the process. So getting a sense of scale based on listening tests is absolutely crucial, as I need to be able to accurately predict at the design stage what a decision will mean. But appreciating how much of a difference actually represents is difficult - for example, when listening to depth, it often just resolves down to A being deeper than B. But what of listening test conducted 2 years ago where C was deeper than D? How can you relate A improvement to the C improvement? This is where getting a perspective on the scale of a change is really important - and it becomes crucial when designing lower cost devices such as Mojo, where you are limited by cost and resources and important compromises have to be made.

So whenever I get to do a listening test, appreciating the scale of the change is vital, as the results will get logged into my mind and used maybe in design decisions 5 years hence. Now with the M scaler I was already knocked out by the change - I knew that increasing tap length would sound better, but I had not expected it to be transformational - and my listening tests and actually using it to enjoy music was telling me this. Because it was so big, I doubted my own opinion, and wanted others to hear it and get their feedback, so I can get a more accurate measure on the scale of the changes. I had been talking to @romaz during the process, and I was deliberately being neutral about the change and my intense excitement, so that when he heard it at CES I would get a unbiased view.

Now trying to asses scale is important, but you need to be aware that listening in strange surroundings, with unfamiliar gear reduces ones sensitivity, so listening at home will give a much more profound and accurate view. It's one reason why we tend not to do AB tests at trade only shows, as the dealers and press will get to grips with it in their own homes soon enough.

So Romaz (Roy) was only the second audiophile to hear the M scaler properly - and you can read for yourselves his impressions. And doing the AB was amazing - you could immediately hear the effects of plugging the M scaler in - and absolutely everything improved. So much so that after 1 minute Roy declared "I gotta get one of those."

Next came up was @jude and I used a 1972 Decca recording of Vaughn Williams Fantasia on a theme by Tomas Tallis. Now this is recorded in London's Kingsway Hall, which has the underground nearby, so you often get to hear the rumble of subway trains. Now when the M scaler was switched on, you could hear a collective gasp by all those present - the rumble sounded completely different - before it was this vague noise - now you actually perceive the pitch of the rumble. Frankly, it was really weird. Next we noticed small ticks and noises from the musicians, and these little disturbances were really clear and precisely located in space.

So I was now getting pretty excited, and was demoing the differences whenever I could. The reaction was universal - everything changes, and it isn't small. Two people commented that the size (scale) of the change was bigger than Hugo to Dave (not sure about that but I can't disagree as it could be). One guy jokingly said I had distorted the direct feed - and I know what he meant by that, but the direct feed is bit perfect. So what changes? The first thing you notice is just clarity - everything is so much clearer and more transparent. Timbre variations are much better, together with pitch reproduction of bass notes. Rhythm's are much easier to follow, and instrument inner detail is easier to hear. Instrument separation and focus is much better, and its much easier to follow rapid variations. Now all of these are expected; they are the usual stuff from improving timing of transients accuracy. But what is also better is depth perception, which is usually nothing to do with timing but small signal amplitude linearity. Now this is better because I have done some more things than simply improve the tap length. One of the curious things was switching on the HF filter with Dave - with 44.1 it should not sound better - and this immediately told me that I needed to improve the WTA filter stop-band performance, and this was done by increasing the bit depth on the quantised coefficients. This worked; now M scaler sounds better with the HF filter off (exactly as it should do). But one unexpected benefit to this has been better depth perception.

Regrets? Yes - I should have trusted my gut reaction, that the M scaler was a profound musical and SQ change, even though my intellect was telling me it's only two and a half bits more accurate. And when launching the M scaler we should have done an AB test to the press at the launch so they can actually appreciate how big the change is. Chord will be doing AB demos of it at the Bristol Hi-Fi show in the UK in February.

Rob
[/spoiler[


For specific details on the M-Scalar you may want to look through Rob's posts for information.

https://www.head-fi.org/f/members/rob-watts.394072/#postings
 
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May 5, 2017 at 7:28 AM Post #8,450 of 25,901
The published power consumption of Blu2 is 30w
By contrast, the power consumption of the Dave isn't even mentioned.

That doesn't explain the comment about BLU 2 getting much hotter than DAVE, which is also around 30w. And it doesn't correlate to the comments that it's not possible to fit M-Scaler into DAVE's enclosure because of excessive current impacting the DAC's delicate circuits.
 
May 5, 2017 at 7:32 AM Post #8,451 of 25,901
Back to the cross-feed revelation – this now explains why I had earlier felt that my Stax 009’s (via external amp) didn’t seem to benefit from cross-feed as much as my directly connected HEK V2’s. The 009’s were getting CF all along! Even after this revelation, I still feel the 009’s can be happy enough without CF, but for my HEK’s CF is essential to remove a slight “hole in the middle” effect that the HEK’s extra wide soundstage can give (recording-dependant).

I agree with recent posts about poor documentation on this point, but now that we know how it works, it’s generally a good thing for those that use external headphone amps. But it is also a reminder that DAVE’s UI is rather clunky in some respects. Rob has earlier admitted that he ran out of time and inspiration on the UI part, preferring to expend his energies on getting the best SQ.

I don’t want to complain too much about this, as I still find the rather unique “cyclops” display one of DAVE’s more attractive features. But the UI needs to be improved whenever a firmware update is done (I’m not holding my breath on this one): Top of the list is to remove that irritating 8 second selection timeout, and now to keep the cross-feed function visible at all times.
 
May 5, 2017 at 7:33 AM Post #8,452 of 25,901
Earlier, we also became aware that DAVE’s CF adds bass boost as part of its processing. And I commented that CF seems to reduce transparency – giving a “thicker”, duller sound. JaZZ replied that HEK’s transparency is very sensitive to bass changes. So I tried it and I agree with him. For my preferred CF2 setting for my HEK V2’s, I settled on -1.7db at 60hz, and Q=0.2 which gives a very broad shallow dip in the bass response, that returns to 0db roughly by 900hz. That probably doesn’t exactly match the CF’s bass change that Rob described, but I’m going by what sounds best to me. I’m not saying this is the perfect adjustment, but it’s where I stopped before getting bored with tweaking.

I was surprised by 2 things:

Firstly, that I didn’t notice much difference to level of bass when changing the bass response – the perceived changes had greater effect on the overall transparency of the sound. After trying various settings, the perceived FR still wasn’t exactly the same as CF0 with no EQ, and maybe I shouldn’t expect it to be so - considering CF by definition is altering the presentation of the soundstage.

Secondly, I was surprised that I could hear (or thought I could hear) even tiny adjustments. E.g. going from -1.5db to -1.7db, or from 0.3Q to 0.2Q. This was with the HEK’s. Each change may have been subtle, but it all added up to a more satisfying musical experience. My 009’s seemed to be much less fussy on such matters, so as always YMMV.

This experience has re-enforced my view that the HEK V2’s scale really well with the transparency of the rest of the system, and that therefore they and DAVE are a match made in heaven. But if the upstream components have a problem, than that problem will be faithfully reproduced by this pairing.
 
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May 5, 2017 at 7:35 AM Post #8,453 of 25,901
That would imply only slightly over 0.16Amps of current draw in a 230V AC setup (assuming a power factor of 0.8). No way the FPGA could be drawing "10Amps" of current, unless there’s a whole bank of them.

Clearly there’re some typos going on that published specs on that Blu Mk 2 web page; notice “Power Supply: 90v AC - 24v AC Auto-Switching” (there's a missing “0” for 240V).

There is a post by Rob Watts explaining the figures (unfortunately the search this thread functionality is no longer available, so try Google).
I think that you are going wrong by assuming 240V - the voltage used in Robs calculations is much lower.
 
May 5, 2017 at 8:55 AM Post #8,454 of 25,901
Hi, I am a new member and I'm not sure why my first post above has been joined in with the post I was quoting. My post was:

Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.

If you have your crossfeed set to 3 then the 95% of the time that you are listening to your DAVE through speakers it will be giving you substantial crosstalk and distortion, albeit signal related.

Not good.

imo this should not be made clear in the manual, it should just not happen. Or at the very least it should be visible on the display and adjustable when you are listening to speakers. Who knows how many people - customers, dealers and reviewers - have been caught out by this, and still are being. Not every DAVE owner ploughs their way through this forum.
 
May 5, 2017 at 9:41 AM Post #8,455 of 25,901
Hi, I am a new member and I'm not sure why my first post above has been joined in with the post I was quoting. My post was:

Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.

On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?
the crossfeed feature will keep running, you should change to crossfeed 0 before unplug the headphone.
very lucky, I like crossfeed 0 in headphone mode
 
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May 5, 2017 at 11:56 AM Post #8,456 of 25,901
If you have your crossfeed set to 3 then the 95% of the time that you are listening to your DAVE through speakers it will be giving you substantial crosstalk and distortion, albeit signal related.
Crosstalk happens exclusively at low frequencies, and there's no harmonic distortion added – to be clear! –, just a moderate amplitude-response distortion in favor of the bass. Nevertheless, I agree that crossfeed with speakers may be detrimental to sound quality. On the other hand, during my speaker phase I had the wish that there was something like this to spread the ultra-low-frequency range (subwoofer frequencies) to both channels for increasing the effective membrane surface of the woofers. I don't listen to speakers anymore, but I can imagine that Crossfeed 1 would come close to this.
 
May 5, 2017 at 12:19 PM Post #8,457 of 25,901
JaZZ, I can assure you that crossfeed IS detrimental to sound quality when listening to speakers. Maybe there is a rare recording that would benefit but you are losing transparency and soundstage focus to a very significant degree. It pains me to think how many hours I've listened to DAVE with compromised sound (conversely, I'm thrilled to get better sound, but then I keep thinking: I should have had this all along and I can't really blame myself for this one . . .) Chord should address this!
 
May 5, 2017 at 12:34 PM Post #8,458 of 25,901
JaZZ, I can assure you that crossfeed IS detrimental to sound quality when listening to speakers. Maybe there is a rare recording that would benefit but you are losing transparency and soundstage focus to a very significant degree. It pains me to think how many hours I've listened to DAVE with compromised sound (conversely, I'm thrilled to get better sound, but then I keep thinking: I should have had this all along and I can't really blame myself for this one . . .) Chord should address this!
That's not hard to believe. But how about Crossfeed 1 specifically?
 
May 5, 2017 at 3:10 PM Post #8,459 of 25,901
That would imply only slightly over 0.16Amps of current draw in a 230V AC setup (assuming a power factor of 0.8). No way the FPGA could be drawing "10Amps" of current, unless there’s a whole bank of them.

Clearly there’re some typos going on that published specs on that Blu Mk 2 web page; notice “Power Supply: 90v AC - 24v AC Auto-Switching” (there's a missing “0” for 240V).

10A at 1V
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-438#post-13150786
 
May 5, 2017 at 8:58 PM Post #8,460 of 25,901

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