CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[x RELIC x]

What is the M-scaler and what can it do to improve the sound of the DAVE??

The M-Scalar (currently only available with the Blu mk2) plugs in to the DAVE for the capability of 1 million TAPs. I'd say search this thread and the Blu mk2 thread, but that isn't a possibility on Head Fi right now.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

Evolvist
I am with you on the quest for musicality over other considerations. There is a lot of kit out there which can deliver good musicality, I think though what Dave delivers above that is deep emotion. For me, that's its trump card and I hope Blu2 M Scaler will add further to this key attribute. Have fun considering alternatives. As long as the music moves you the quest is always worthwhile.

 

[tunes]

The M-Scalar (currently only available with the Blu mk2) plugs in to the DAVE for the capability of 1 million TAPs. I'd say search this thread and the Blu mk2 thread, but that isn't a possibility on Head Fi right now.

I really do not understand why someone would want a CD transport to spin an optical disc in this era when most of us are storing away CDs after creating FLAC files on solid state storage media to play through the DAVE or HUGO2. As far as the M-scaler and million TAPs, why not just create the DAVE2 upgrade and incorporate the M-scaler technology? What am I missing in this discussion?

 

[Sonic77]

I really do not understand why someone would want a CD transport to spin an optical disc in this era when most of us are storing away CDs after creating FLAC files on solid state storage media to play through the DAVE or HUGO2. As far as the M-scaler and million TAPs, why not just create the DAVE2 upgrade and incorporate the M-scaler technology? What am I missing in this discussion?

The reason they cannot incorporate the M Scaler into a Dave 2 is because it requires 10 amps to run and that would cause too much interference into Dave delicate circuitry. The reason it was incorporated in the cd player was because that was what Rob was working on at the time, (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

Blu Mk II M Scaler is so powerful using so much power that it needs to be separated from Dave to keep noise floor down I believe. Also the Blu Mk II upscales at 16x Red Book 44.1 kHz something your streamer won't do from the hard drive unless it goes through the BLu Mk II M Scaler first. Still a major proportion of audiophiles still prefer to spin discs. Especially so in Asia I believe. Each to their own.

What does it do? Well this is what Chord has to say ".........This remarkable capability takes transient accuracy to a completely unprecedented level: it becomes simpler to perceive the leading edge of transient notes, creating a life-like sound-field. Bass definition is massively improved, with greater ability to follow the tune. Sound-staging, instrument separation and focus are also noticeably better, along with vastly improved variation in instrument timbre."

 

[x RELIC x]

I really do not understand why someone would want a CD transport to spin an optical disc in this era when most of us are storing away CDs after creating FLAC files on solid state storage media to play through the DAVE or HUGO2. As far as the M-scaler and million TAPs, why not just create the DAVE2 upgrade and incorporate the M-scaler technology? What am I missing in this discussion?

Then use the USB input in the Blu mk2 to play FLAC. It's just the product the M-Scalar is in currently. Perhaps in the future it will be in others.

As was mentioned, there are power limitations and obstacles to overcome which is why the M-Scalar can't run in the same chassis. The M-Scalar draws a lot of power for the ridiculous amount of calculation it is doing.

 

[shuttlepod]

I've been quiet on this forum for probably six months, just reading posts and enjoying my DAVE as I make progress refining my digital signal path (I'm now using the bridged ethernet "direct" connection advocated by Roy (Romaz) on computeraudiophile.com with an SoTM SMS-200).

Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all.

Does this make an audible sonic difference?

Yes, and the difference is VERY significant -- on speakers, the signal is cleaner, the soundstage much better sorted, and the perception of depth greater when crossfeed is set to zero. Unfortunately, I listen to headphones as well as speakers and my crossfeed had been set at 1 or 2 for most of the time I've had my DAVE.

Although I have unending respect for the brilliance of Rob's and Chord's design for the DAVE, Chord's failure to make it clear to users that the crossfeed setting remains active at all times (not just with headphone listening) is a serious issue that should be addressed. At the very LEAST, the manual should be rewritten to reflect the actual operation of the machine. And, in my opinion, the DAVE suffers a design defect because the crossfeed setting is not visible when using speakers (only when a headphone is actually plugged in). This is simply misleading -- how many other users have unknowingly had crossfeed activated while listening to speakers because they (reasonably) assumed the setting only applied to headphones? The result, unfortunately, is compromised sound.

Chord, do you plan to do something about this? It will lead to enhanced appreciation of music and correct usage of DAVE.

 

[ray-dude]

Yes, and the difference is VERY significant -- on speakers, the signal is cleaner, the soundstage much better sorted, and the perception of depth greater when crossfeed is set to zero. Unfortunately, I listen to headphones as well as speakers and my crossfeed had been set at 1 or 2 for most of the time I've had my DAVE.

(snip)

Chord, do you plan to do something about this? It will lead to enhanced appreciation of music and correct usage of DAVE.

+100

I'm embarrassed to say I too was surprised by this. As awesome as the DAVE headphone is (honestly, it is transformative), I've been struggling to get my speaker performance to even close to the same level. Switching off cross talk made a HUGE difference. (and yes, I felt more than a little embarrassed that the degradation tail I was chasing was my own)

That being said, the improvements I've been making in my 2 channel setup are still there, so there is a silver lining to have had the motivation to find and make those improvements.

The current crossfeed setup is certainly non-intuitive at a should be well documented (alas, the firmware behavior is what it is) I appreciate the folks on the forum that chased this down and shared their experiences.

 

[jelt2359]

+100

I'm embarrassed to say I too was surprised by this. As awesome as the DAVE headphone is (honestly, it is transformative), I've been struggling to get my speaker performance to even close to the same level. Switching off cross talk made a HUGE difference. (and yes, I felt more than a little embarrassed that the degradation tail I was chasing was my own)

That being said, the improvements I've been making in my 2 channel setup are still there, so there is a silver lining to have had the motivation to find and make those improvements.

The current crossfeed setup is certainly non-intuitive at a should be well documented (alas, the firmware behavior is what it is) I appreciate the folks on the forum that chased this down and shared their experiences.

What's most ironic is that ultimately I chased it down because I had always purposely set crossfeed at 0 and now wanted to try it at non-0 with my other external headamps. LOL.

 

[GreenLeo]

I've been quiet on this forum for probably six months, just reading posts and enjoying my DAVE as I make progress refining my digital signal path (I'm now using the bridged ethernet "direct" connection advocated by Roy (Romaz) on computeraudiophile.com with an SoTM SMS-200).

Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all.

Does this make an audible sonic difference?

Yes, and the difference is VERY significant -- on speakers, the signal is cleaner, the soundstage much better sorted, and the perception of depth greater when crossfeed is set to zero. Unfortunately, I listen to headphones as well as speakers and my crossfeed had been set at 1 or 2 for most of the time I've had my DAVE.

Although I have unending respect for the brilliance of Rob's and Chord's design for the DAVE, Chord's failure to make it clear to users that the crossfeed setting remains active at all times (not just with headphone listening) is a serious issue that should be addressed. At the very LEAST, the manual should be rewritten to reflect the actual operation of the machine. And, in my opinion, the DAVE suffers a design defect because the crossfeed setting is not visible when using speakers (only when a headphone is actually plugged in). This is simply misleading -- how many other users have unknowingly had crossfeed activated while listening to speakers because they (reasonably) assumed the setting only applied to headphones? The result, unfortunately, is compromised sound.

Chord, do you plan to do something about this? It will lead to enhanced appreciation of music and correct usage of DAVE.

Hi,

There are users who use external amp to drive the HP. Hence RCA/XLR out with crossfed is important for them.

 

[Christer]

I've been quiet on this forum for probably six months, just reading posts and enjoying my DAVE as I make progress refining my digital signal path (I'm now using the bridged ethernet "direct" connection advocated by Roy (Romaz) on computeraudiophile.com with an SoTM SMS-200).

Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all.

Does this make an audible sonic difference?

Yes, and the difference is VERY significant -- on speakers, the signal is cleaner, the soundstage much better sorted, and the perception of depth greater when crossfeed is set to zero. Unfortunately, I listen to headphones as well as speakers and my crossfeed had been set at 1 or 2 for most of the time I've had my DAVE.

Although I have unending respect for the brilliance of Rob's and Chord's design for the DAVE, Chord's failure to make it clear to users that the crossfeed setting remains active at all times (not just with headphone listening) is a serious issue that should be addressed. At the very LEAST, the manual should be rewritten to reflect the actual operation of the machine. And, in my opinion, the DAVE suffers a design defect because the crossfeed setting is not visible when using speakers (only when a headphone is actually plugged in). This is simply misleading -- how many other users have unknowingly had crossfeed activated while listening to speakers because they (reasonably) assumed the setting only applied to headphones? The result, unfortunately, is compromised sound.

Chord, do you plan to do something about this? It will lead to enhanced appreciation of music and correct usage of DAVE.

Hmm, what surprises me about this finding is that many don't seem to hear the same differences via headphones?
I initially tried the crossfeed settings with my HUGO but quickly realized that it messed up the intended soundstage balance with realistic simply mic'd recordings of acoustic music.
With classical music the recording engineer generally monitors via headphones at sessions and balances accordingly.
Only rarely do the recording balances exaggerate or isolate and ping pong effect, the left right channels via headphones.
If anything I would say that headphone listening without crossfeed is sometimes the best way to actually hear the enormous width of an orchestra that most stereo systems with speakers fail to reveal except in very large rooms with speakers far apart.
From the front stalls in many concert halls the distance between the first violins on the left and the basses on the right of the podium is often 30 metres or more.
Soundstage width is about as important as depth to me.
To my ears crossfeed creates an artificial width loss effect I don't like via headphones too.
The closer you know how a recording was balanced,the more obvious the artificiality of crossfeed.
Once again with pop and rock and such genres there is often no actual soundstage to be recreated anyway.

 

[jelt2359]

Hmm, what surprises me about this finding is that many don't seem to hear the same differences via headphones?
I initially tried the crossfeed settings with my HUGO but quickly realized that it messed up the intended soundstage balance with realistic simply mic'd recordings of acoustic music.
With classical music the recording engineer generally monitors via headphones at sessions and balances accordingly.
Only rarely do the recording balances exaggerate or isolate and ping pong effect, the left right channels via headphones.
If anything I would say that headphone listening without crossfeed is sometimes the best way to actually hear the enormous width of an orchestra that most stereo systems with speakers fail to reveal except in very large rooms with speakers far apart.
From the front stalls in many concert halls the distance between the first violins on the left and the basses on the right of the podium is often 30 metres or more.
Soundstage width is about as important as depth to me.
To my ears crossfeed creates an artificial width loss effect I don't like via headphones too.
The closer you know how a recording was balanced,the more obvious the artificality of crossfeed.
Once again with pop and rock and such genres there is often no actual soundstage to be recreated anyway.

I have been living without crossfeed for many years. When I recently tried the crossfeed feature to my external amps, I was surprised. The center imaging became much more coherent and precise. It sounded way more like speakers that disappear, rather than having two obvious drivers on each side of your head. I often have that illusion with speakers, where you seriously can't tell where the sound is coming from. This is seldom the case with headphones. Crossfeed is not a free lunch, you gain some you lose some, you definitely lose width but the drivers also 'disappear' more- whether that's worthwhile to you is a choice you make.

Anyway settings 0, 1, 2 and 3 are there for you to tune to however much crossfeed you like.

 

[AndrewC88]

The reason they cannot incorporate the M Scaler into a Dave 2 is because it requires 10 amps to run and that would cause too much interference into Dave delicate circuitry. ...

Does it really though?

The Xilinx Artix XC7A200T FPGA draws less than 400mA of current at peak with a 1.8V supply … Are there more than one of those chips in Blu Mk2? Or is it a typo in their published specs?

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/blu-mk-2/#techspec

FPGA current draw: 10amps

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

I didn't know about the cross feed working when speakers are used with Dave but as I do not use phones it was set at zero. What is perplexing is that it seems to work on settings of 0-3 not 1-4 as the manual says.

 

[Malcyg]

Anyway, just today I came across the various posts expressing surprise that DAVE's crossfeed setting remains active when using speakers. I was also surprised at this, to put it mildly, and I too tested it out with the Stereophile channel identification track. Sure enough, with crossfeed activated, the speaker channels were not separated at all. /QUOTE]



Thanks for this info. I use my Dave 95% of the time through speakers and only a small amount through headphones. I have crossfeed set to 3 and had assumed that this had no impact on the settings through speakers. I will check this out later on but, if it is true what you have said, then this really should be made clear in the manual.

On a separate point, are there any conclusive findings on whether, and by how much, the Dave is improved by using the Blu II M Scaler? I'm not sure that I understand what it is doing - is it not just similar to software upscaling?