[Rob Watts]

 

  Basically with USB the treble was never accurate or musical to me, too edgy and sharp, digital.

 
I am just passing the first month with my DAVE. At no time have had your experience using USB, AES, SPDIF or optical connections.
 
To me, DAVE's timbres through USB are so real it sometimes makes the hair on my neck and arms stand on end. The accuracy of a hit of a triangle at the back of the recording studio some distance from the microphone is so unmistakably a triangle and unmistakably a long way from the microphone. My old DAC has never presented that faint triangle sound in all the years I have had it. So I guess the DAVE's lower-than-most noise floor allowed that sound to be resolved and presented.
 
I am finding that the USB input of DAVE is making me believe the sounds are real and present in my listening space which my old DAC costing 3 times as much as DAVE could not achieve (however nice I used to think the valve distortion was in my old DAC).
 
Cheers
GG.

 
People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
 
The improvement in depth one hears with Dave is entirely down to how accurate small signals amplitudes are preserved; and Dave, with its -350 dB digital domain performance, plus the immense care I go to ensure that small signals are accurately reproduced has unique abilities in this area.
 
On the timbre variation front, this ability is actually quite complex; but in short its down to Dave's complete lack of noise floor modulation, plus the unique way it accurately reconstructs the timing of transients. Timbre perception comes from transients, and when transient timing is distorted, one can't perceive timbre correctly. 
 
My experience with USB sounding hard or edgy is limited to when the source is not sending bit perfect data. Something no DAC can fix.
 
Rob

 

[gnomen]

Bit perfect data?
 
Rob, my Weiss DAC-202 comes with a set of files to test that bit perfect data is being received at the DAC.  The files are played through the music system (iTunes/Pure Music on an iMac in my case).  If the signal is received bit perfect, a message is displayed on the DAC's control panel to confirm.  Peace of mind.
 
Now I also have a Chord Hugo TT (and contemplating a DAVE) and the Weiss is used in a separate system.  The TT does not have a bit-perfect test AFAIK.  Would it be difficult to add?

 

[astrostar59]

   
People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
 
The improvement in depth one hears with Dave is entirely down to how accurate small signals amplitudes are preserved; and Dave, with its -350 dB digital domain performance, plus the immense care I go to ensure that small signals are accurately reproduced has unique abilities in this area.
 
On the timbre variation front, this ability is actually quite complex; but in short its down to Dave's complete lack of noise floor modulation, plus the unique way it accurately reconstructs the timing of transients. Timbre perception comes from transients, and when transient timing is distorted, one can't perceive timbre correctly. 
 
My experience with USB sounding hard or edgy is limited to when the source is not sending bit perfect data. Something no DAC can fix.
 
Rob

Don't agree. I have heard many high end DACs fed by USB and they all sounded better with AOIP. Maybe you should try it before saying it is the DAC causing it? Check out the AOIP thread, pretty much 100% who have dropped USB have confirmed it is better. I am not saying the Dave is not a great DAC, I am saying USB is not the best transfer connection you can have.

 

[TheAttorney]

Quote:

My experience with USB sounding hard or edgy is limited to when the source is not sending bit perfect data. Something no DAC can fix.

 
My Windows laptop USB direct to Dave doesn't sound hard or edgy. But it does sound better with HQ Player than with JRiver MC. This with all DSP off, other than dither set on HQP (simply because romaz recommended it). I'm guessing that dither will lose the bit perfectness? 
 
But USB direct is significantly improved by adding a microRendu and using HQP in NAA mode.
 
Amazing really: I add a wifi link -> router -> Ethernet cable -> mR (then back to same USB) directly into the signal path and the SQ improves significantly. Oh, and upgrading the Ethernet cable helped too.  I really don't understand this networking lark  
 
None of the above is about "hard or edgy". It's more about clarity, focus, transparency and more "you are there" fine detail. 
 

 

[astrostar59]

Possibly taken the wrong way. I was saying 'hard' or 'edgy' to leverage the point. We are talking subtleties of tone and general smoothness of the music. I notice it most on female vocals, such as Cranberries or other vocals that hit a high sustaining note. It is a general digital coarseness in USB. I have bought over the years various USB fixers: Offramp 5, M2 Tech EVO full stack, various noise fixers. It didn't quite do it for me.
 
Dropping in AOIP and immediately reaped rewards. It as noticeable on the first chorus on my test tracks. Liquid, smoothness, detail but not digital is my best description of it. I leave the technicalities of why it works to others. But I would say give it a try. I sold my 1.3K USB chain to fund the RedNet 3 at 999 USD. Fantastic move, and I would love others to hear what it can do.
 
TBH, yes USB can be damb good, but I can't go back now. It is something I hear and I want it now, USB would be like a copy of a copy if you get my drift, rather than a master tape. Sorry, hard to explain how it sounds.
 
There is 2 huge threads, one on here, and one over at computer audiophile. Pretty much everyone who has done it says it is better.

 

[Currawong]

 

   
People often make the comment that a black background is due to lower noise floor and actually that's not the case. Dave has -128 dB DR; but if this was say 20 dB worse, then listening on loudspeakers, nobody would in practice hear the difference.
 
The improvement in depth one hears with Dave is entirely down to how accurate small signals amplitudes are preserved; and Dave, with its -350 dB digital domain performance, plus the immense care I go to ensure that small signals are accurately reproduced has unique abilities in this area.
 
On the timbre variation front, this ability is actually quite complex; but in short its down to Dave's complete lack of noise floor modulation, plus the unique way it accurately reconstructs the timing of transients. Timbre perception comes from transients, and when transient timing is distorted, one can't perceive timbre correctly. 
 
My experience with USB sounding hard or edgy is limited to when the source is not sending bit perfect data. Something no DAC can fix.
 
Rob

Don't agree. I have heard many high end DACs fed by USB and they all sounded better with AOIP. Maybe you should try it before saying it is the DAC causing it? Check out the AOIP thread, pretty much 100% who have dropped USB have confirmed it is better. I am not saying the Dave is not a great DAC, I am saying USB is not the best transfer connection you can have.

 
It'd be interesting to test. Going by impressions, I'm sure the Rednet has a fantastic quality AES output, very likely far above most other gear that we see around here, as a result of the design and manufacture being top-notch. I'm sure that is the reason that the sound quality is excellent. I don't think it has anything to do with the protocol at all.
 
That being said, I never felt USB was capable of being good, until recently. It has taken time for engineers to mature it. There is a lovely example I wish I could give (not just the DAVE) but I have to wait until the company announces it officially. 
 
It would be interesting to battle off a Rednet with the stock USB input on the DAVE though.  I hope someone manages to arrange it sometime. 

 

[astrostar59]

   
It'd be interesting to test. Going by impressions, I'm sure the Rednet has a fantastic quality AES output, very likely far above most other gear that we see around here, as a result of the design and manufacture being top-notch. I'm sure that is the reason that the sound quality is excellent. I don't think it has anything to do with the protocol at all.
 
That being said, I never felt USB was capable of being good, until recently. It has taken time for engineers to mature it. There is a lovely example I wish I could give (not just the DAVE) but I have to wait until the company announces it officially. 
 
It would be interesting to battle off a Rednet with the stock USB input on the DAVE though.  I hope someone manages to arrange it sometime. 

Dunno. My DAC gets fed via SPDIF the same as on USB v AOIP. The only thing that changes is the connection method. Both have clocking in the SPDIF convertor or the Rednet.
 
Like I said, I had an Offramp 5 and the M2Tech EVO full stack. I also tried my AMR DP-777 with USB direct, USB via M2Tech and now AOIP. The result is the same, Ethernet is miles cleaner an just more fluid, more real. In a 15 minute demo in a shop yopu may not notice it. But at home, play it loud and wow, massive difference. Any vestiges of digital is gone. I would say it will boost any DAC that is using USB connection. 
 
Yes, more folk who have tried it please. I am excited about this subject. I have tweaked and changed gear over the last 20 years, but AOIP is possibly the most exciting change so far IMO.

 

[x RELIC x]

A side note:

I wish users would specify which S/PDIF connection they are using. The Sony/Phillips Digital Interface Format includes both optical TOSlink and coaxial with RCA so it would be helpful for others to be clear on which one is used as there are audible differences noted between the two.

P.S. I know the above user is referring to coaxial RCA, but it's a bad habit I'm reading a lot more of on Head Fi lately to just mention S/PDIF.

 

[Arpiben]

Hi astrostar59

I agree with you that as a media transport Ethernet is better fitted than USB.
I also would like to see RJ45 or even better, Short Length Fiber ( 850nm not Toslink)Inputs & Outputs in DACs.
Unfortunately we need to wait.
IMHO, Audio Over IP (AOIP) & AES67 are still not mature enough.
It works with limited rates in home or small LAN networks due to latency issues.
Until then we may dream that DACs such DAVE will one day include the player & enough storage.
Cheers

 

[Beolab]

I2s is the future connection interface for HiFi is my qualified estimation.

Maybe we see this feature in DAVE 2, when we have discovered that USB is outdated.

 

[Rob Watts]

I2s is the future connection interface for HiFi is my qualified estimation.

Maybe we see this feature in DAVE 2, when we have discovered that USB is outdated.

No and no.
 
And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
 
Rob 

 

[jelt2359]

It'd be interesting to test. Going by impressions, I'm sure the Rednet has a fantastic quality AES output, very likely far above most other gear that we see around here, as a result of the design and manufacture being top-notch. I'm sure that is the reason that the sound quality is excellent. I don't think it has anything to do with the protocol at all.

That being said, I never felt USB was capable of being good, until recently. It has taken time for engineers to mature it. There is a lovely example I wish I could give (not just the DAVE) but I have to wait until the company announces it officially. 

It would be interesting to battle off a Rednet with the stock USB input on the DAVE though.  I hope someone manages to arrange it sometime. 

When I compared the rednet via AES to my microrendu via USB to the Dave it was very close. The microRendu was a bit bigger in stage and more laid back. This was from the ifi ipower though so probably not at its best. The microRendu also responded very obviously to USB cable changes and in the end I used my curious USB for a good but cost effective (enough) solution.

In comparison my rednet was more vivid and energetic.

 

[Christer]

  No and no.
 
And Dave 2 hasn't even been dreamed about - unless major essential parts become unavailable Dave 2 is many years away.
 
Rob 

I am still  using a macbookpro which is a few years old and it has both usb 2 and firewire 800 ports. But when I will buy a newer  more portable laptop than  my 17" 3kg heavy mbp soon, it will most probably have neither firewire 800 which I use for my portable hardrives, nor usb2,but USB-C ports that will need an adapter to work with HUGO or DAVE.
I understand DAVE will be around for long but what about future products?
Why is the  consumer computer DAC industry sticking with usb2 when few current or future laptops  will have those ports?
Even firewire 400 and 800 which  were much faster, and according to  recording engineers I met, also clearly better than usb 2  years ago, and used by some in the recording  industry, and for example the Weiss dacs, is history since  they started  using ethernet and such.
 
No one  as far as I know,ever used usb 2 in connection with pro ADCs/DACs?
Current ADCs use ethernet connection at sessions if I remember correctly.
And now that even most consumer laptops don´t feature usb 2 any longer why  do so many dacs still favour it?
Won´t the need to use adapters increase RF and other usb 2 related problems?
Just wondering.

 

[Crgreen]

Prior to the Hugo, I was unimpressed with USB connections. CD usually sounded better defined. With the Hugo, and subsequently the DAVE, that changed. Chord have clearly got USB right, and it's now my preferred input. I tried both balanced and optical connections to the DAVE from my Meridain 500 CD transport, and found no discenable difference - a first, so I've stuck with optical to avoid any possible RF transmission to the DAVE. I've also found a number of ways to improve the quality of the USB feed from my hi-fi laptop, some of which might not amount to anything more than RF rejection.

 

[Christer]

Prior to the Hugo, I was unimpressed with USB connections. CD usually sounded better defined. With the Hugo, and subsequently the DAVE, that changed. Chord have clearly got USB right, and it's now my preferred input. I tried both balanced and optical connections to the DAVE from my Meridain 500 CD transport, and found no discenable difference - a first, so I've stuck with optical to avoid any possible RF transmission to the DAVE. I've also found a number of ways to improve the quality of the USB feed from my hi-fi laptop, some of which might not amount to anything more than RF rejection.

In my case my Benchmark DAC 2 which is galvanically isolated is a much more reliable source than my HUGO via USB in my home system.
And both my former Weiss DAC which worked via Firewire and my Hegel HD 25 had fewer RF problems than Hugo.
Nowadays I use HUGO basically only when I am out travelling like now.
I hear USB as problematic via HUGO too often to trust it at home.