[alxw0w]

I'm testing everything in flac on Tidal.
Well it's either defective or i'm using it wrong "D BNC 705.6" right? I assume there's no way something could be plugged in wrong.
Because it sounds EXACTLY the same on and off, no difference whatsoever. Both optical and usb.
In all my testing with it i have never noticed any changes in timbre, only slight positioning changes, a few degrees here and there, but nothing major, and not on all tracks.
A bit wider soundstage on "From Rags to Riches" and a bit more separation with CF0, less noticeable (if at all) with CF 1,2,3. And that's the most difference i've ever seen with the m-scaler in 2 days of testing, again, only on SOME tracks.
So either it's defective or i need Utopias lol. As a side note, with the Arya's it's even harder to spot any changes. I don't have any other headphones to test with.

I don't know Z1R - never listened to them. But I can say that on some headphones effect was less pronounced with M Scaler. Audeze LCD-XC had changed A LOT. But on the other hand with LCD3 the effect wasn't so prominent.
And what I've also noticed M Scaler improved more TT2 than the Dave.
Dave already has crazy decay depth and pin point imaging. In my experience adding the m scaler to the chain wasn't so revolutionary as it was with TT2.

 

[adrianm]

Make sure the furthest left button is off. That’s the pass through. But, yeah dbnc 705 is correct. You can get the full 768 with 24/96 songs

Yeah it's off. I'm on USB, CF2 now and hear almost 0 differences with it on or off, a very slightly "stretched image" if i focus really hard on it.

And what I've also noticed M Scaler improved more TT2 than the Dave.

This i can definitely vouch for, i thought the same thing when i first auditioned them together and i was expecting at least the same kind of difference with Dave. Though in hindsight i probably shouldn't have.
I'm gonna stop testing since it's getting tiring and differences are nowhere as described, more often than not it sounds exactly the same. I might audition another unit at a later date just to make sure there wasn't something wrong with this one.

 

[iamoneagain]

Yeah it's off. I'm on USB, CF2 now and hear almost 0 differences with it on or off, a very slightly "stretched image" if i focus really hard on it.

This i can definitely vouch for, i thought the same thing when i first auditioned them together and i was expecting at least the same kind of difference with Dave. Though in hindsight i probably shouldn't have.
I'm gonna stop testing since it's getting tiring and differences are nowhere as described, more often than not it sounds exactly the same. I might audition another unit at a later date just to make sure there wasn't something wrong with this one.

I guess it’s possible can’t tell much difference with the headphones you’re using. But if that’s the case just return the mscaler and be happy. No reason to spend any more money. I’m guessing since the headphone are not as transparent you’re not going to hear any of the other changes people are recommending but don’t wright it off as snake oil. Sometimes just a minor change in the way the vocals are presented can make all the difference to someone.

I’m also wondering if you’d be disappointed when you finally hear the Bartok. People say it’s very close to the Dave and if your headphones can’t hear any of these other differences, it might not matter. But then maybe the one box solution will suite you better. I can see how even if technically Dave might be the right approach it’s still the combination streamer, power supply, headphone output could make it more musical. The one thing they give credit to the Dave is the lack of smear and it’s speed. Think that might be better with the Utopia since ultra transparent and supposed to one of the fastest dynamic headphone.

At least your trying this out for yourself and giving your opinions. But these are just your options based on your experience and your equipment. It doesn’t invalidate anyone else’s opinions. So others trying decide what’s best for them need to judge based on their equipment and whether their opinions line up with that person. And then finally test for yourself.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I have tested both the Hugo 2 and DAVE with and without the M Scaler with USB direct from my Macbook running Audirvana Plus and from my Chord Blu MK1 with my Grado GS 3000e's (quite a revealing headphone) and my UK Speaker System (DAVE ----> Mezzo 140 Power Amp ----> Focal Electra 1008 Be's).

Playing various genres of music (identical from Macbook and Blu) with some live and some studio recorded.

I definitely noticed a difference with and without M Scaler especially with live music on both the DAVE and Hugo 2 as other people have described with positive reviews. It's definitely a keeper !

 

[adrianm]

I guess it’s possible can’t tell much difference with the headphones you’re using. But if that’s the case just return the mscaler and be happy. No reason to spend any more money. I’m guessing since the headphone are not as transparent you’re not going to hear any of the other changes people are recommending but don’t wright it off as snake oil. Sometimes just a minor change in the way the vocals are presented can make all the difference to someone.

I’m also wondering if you’d be disappointed when you finally hear the Bartok. People say it’s very close to the Dave and if your headphones can’t hear any of these other differences, it might not matter. But then maybe the one box solution will suite you better. I can see how even if technically Dave might be the right approach it’s still the combination streamer, power supply, headphone output could make it more musical. The one thing they give credit to the Dave is the lack of smear and it’s speed. Think that might be better with the Utopia since ultra transparent and supposed to one of the fastest dynamic headphone.

At least your trying this out for yourself and giving your opinions. But these are just your options based on your experience and your equipment. It doesn’t invalidate anyone else’s opinions. So others trying decide what’s best for them need to judge based on their equipment and whether their opinions line up with that person. And then finally test for yourself.

Well the problem is i kind of wanted to spend more, i just want an upgrade for it. I do hear a difference with the Z1R in some songs, but not for the better imo. With Optical everything sounds veiled and overly smoothed to me, i genuinely hate it. With usb it doesn't sound veiled but i feel like i'm only left with slight positional changes and nothing else. Absolutely no changes in tonality whatsoever. With the Aryas it's even less noticeable.
I'll check out the Utopias ,Empyreans and He1000se for reference soon but untill we move i'd rather use closed backs.And by the LCD-4z audition i'm not expecting much of an upgrade.
I'm pretty happy with using Dave as my desktop all in one with pc via optical at the moment, just hoped there's more to squeeze out of it and i'm not finding it. If other people are happy with their m-scalers and etc, good for them.
Guess i'll wait for a new m-scaler, closed back flag ships or check out the Bartok later if nothing comes along. I'm pretty sick of chasing upgrades at the moment and i guess i'll focus on non audio toys.
You could say "iamdone"

 

[iamoneagain]

Well the problem is i kind of wanted to spend more, i just want an upgrade for it. I do hear a difference with the Z1R in some songs, but not for the better imo. With Optical everything sounds veiled and overly smoothed to me, i genuinely hate it. With usb it doesn't sound veiled but i feel like i'm only left with slight positional changes and nothing else. Absolutely no changes in tonality whatsoever. With the Aryas it's even less noticeable.
I'll check out the Utopias ,Empyreans and He1000se for reference soon but untill we move i'd rather use closed backs.And by the LCD-4z audition i'm not expecting much of an upgrade.
I'm pretty happy with using Dave as my desktop all in one with pc via optical at the moment, just hoped there's more to squeeze out of it and i'm not finding it. If other people are happy with their m-scalers and etc, good for them.
Guess i'll wait for a new m-scaler, closed back flag ships or check out the Bartok later if nothing comes along. I'm pretty sick of chasing upgrades at the moment and i guess i'll focus on non audio toys.
You could say "iamdone"

Haha. But it is true. At some you just have to stop chasing an endlessly upgrade path or you’ll never be happy. It hard when you read these forums and everyone is bragging about how great things sound, myself included. But I think at this point your time would be better spent discovering new music. Just enjoy the setup you have now.

With that said, think I’ll take my own advice and take a break from these forums again.

 

[ubs28]

I could hear the difference between Dave and Dave + Mscaler quite easily.

But it sounded also brighter which what I found very strange, so I did not buy it in the end.

 

[edwardsean]

Super Secret Confessions of an Elite Headfi Bragger Par Excellence (Esquire)

It's good to hear different perspectives on the same gear. In fact, it's indispensable. It's kind of the reason we're all here. Not everyone's perspective is equally valid. Everyone–has a right to enjoy what they enjoy from a 1980's tape walkman to a 100K system. But, there is a massive disparity of technical/musical experience represented here, and my hope is always that respect and humility would follow accordingly. I accept that it doesn't always work out that way.

However, I have to say, let's be careful of attributing motives on anyone's part. Not everyone that is hyper-critical is trolling. And, not everyone that is hyper-enthusiastic is bragging.

Yes, there are those who don't only enjoy music and audio gear; they enjoy the elitism, the bragging rights that make them feel superior. This just is–not–the sense I get from the vast majority of people contributing to this thread. I don't think "club membership" was the reason most of us somehow managed to buy a Dave. I don't think the joy of owning better gear is to rub it in the face of those who have less. The fact that we can't all afford what we want in audio makes me feel worse about what I have not better. The goal of this thread, if I can say, is to help and encourage each other toward better sound together.

Some of us go through a lot of gear. There's a lot of stuff that is overpriced, makes little or no difference, or just sucks the life out of your system. But, you don't jump on headfi to trash a box or a cable. It might help, but there's little motivation for it. We're not reviewers.

When you find, e.g., a cable you hunted for that lights up your system, the instinct is not, "I got to tell everyone how much I spent. They have to know how rich I am and that I now own this prestige piece. Maybe I could wear it around my neck at the next Headfi meet. I must post about this because my boss yells at me and my dad never respected me."

It goes a little like this:

You find a cable on USAudio Mart, because good tech costs money, but you're not going to pay retail. You try it out. It's good, really, really good. You're surprised, even after so much gear, you're still surprised that a stupid little length of over-engineered wire can do... this. You're delighted, giddy even. You calm down. Experience has taught you to wait. Get some sleep. Over the next few days you test. Is it really that good? Confirmation bias? Which way? I heard it was good, but I also thought "no way"? You let the novelty wear off. You stop listening for what you gain and listen for what you lose. You take it out of your system, you compare with other cables, you orient, reorient, think, and listen again. Yeah, it's that good.

I got to tell somebody. But, who, in this wide world, cares about a stupid little length of over-engineered wire? Headfi.

You're not sharing, at this point, because you need confirmation or affirmation. You share because you're bursting. You share because you've worked through a bunch of pyrite and found a bit of real gold. The human instinct that follows is to not keep it to yourself, but to share knowledge of good things. It's to make membership less exclusive not more. Personally, I don't enjoy the feeling of, "I have this, but you don't." What I do love is: "If you can, get this, so we can talk about how great it is together!" Why?

Because, in this world of misery loves company, so does happiness.

 

[audio_1]

I can't understand how it can be difficult to hear the difference when comparing solo Dave and Dave + Mscaler. In my experience it is easy to hear the difference and it is immediately apparent. The increase in musicality and emotional involvement on poor boring recordings, makes them much more enjoyable. Bass resolution and texture are also improved to a degree that I believe is impossible to achieve without the addition of the mscaler. I have certainly never heard this with other dacs. Mains power conditioning is also vital to get the most from Dave.

 

[adrianm]

Not everyone's perspective is equally valid. Everyone–has a right to enjoy what they enjoy from a 1980's tape walkman to a 100K system. But, there is a massive disparity of technical/musical experience represented here

For a non-elitist technically savvy group, whenever someone disagrees the answer is surprisingly often " you need better... everything else to hear what i'm hearing with the same components" instead of something helpful .
Well a friend with the same headphones tested with his tt2+mscaler and confirmed there was a big delta as well (i heard it as well when i auditioned HTT2 a few months ago) so clearly that wasn't the problem.
I've finally gotten to a point where i can hear the improvements everyone is going on about. The scenarios were the following :
1) Optical sounds horrible, not sure if it's somehow the cable, the Realtek drivers, or something else but with the m-scaler on connected to optical i just want to kill it with fire.
2) Usb with Jitterbug out of my gaming pc sounds well..almost the same on and off, a slightly wider soundstage but very hard to pinpoint, but no longer that veil of smoothness from optical
3) Usb with Jitterbug out of my Macbook Pro 16 on battery sounds considerably better than the pc. Now there is a modest improvement in soundstage and separation, even a slight change in tonality, but for the better this time. I would put in on par with the mains filter.
These drastic differences are kind of disappointing for a product at it's price, as it shows it has a ton of problems to be fixed. Judging by how big the delta is between sounding better and sounding worse than solo Dave i guess there are still tons of improvements to be made.
So i guess now i have to decide if i should hop on the crazy train with cables, reclockers, a dedicated streamer and spend another time and a half the price of the m-scaler to get it to the point where it's actually an upgrade all the time or just keep it as is and upgrade to an all in one later.
All these findings were also validated by my gf just to make sure i'm not going crazy.

 

[adrianm]

Not everyone's perspective is equally valid.

I think this proves my point more than anything else i could say on the elitism subject. I do agree however. I think most people build their systems without a realistic understanding of what's going on and as such i've rarely found useful advice on head-fi. People on other threads screaming you need thousand dollar power cables but telling me i'm crazy for suggesting a mains filter, and laughing it off as if that's snake oil.

 

[adrianm]

I can't understand how it can be difficult to hear the difference when comparing solo Dave and Dave + Mscaler. In my experience it is easy to hear the difference and it is immediately apparent. The increase in musicality and emotional involvement on poor boring recordings, makes them much more enjoyable. Bass resolution and texture are also improved to a degree that I believe is impossible to achieve without the addition of the mscaler. I have certainly never heard this with other dacs. Mains power conditioning is also vital to get the most from Dave.

Well as people already know i absolutely love my Z1R's but i think they might be slightly less resolving than your Magicos
Either way, i got to the bottom of it, there is an improvement, mostly in soundstage and separation (call it 20%), slightly in timbre on some tracks as well, but as you can imagine comparing a live acoustic recording to some electronic stuff the delta varies.

 

[edwardsean]

Not everyone's perspective is equally valid.

I think this proves my point more than anything else i could say on the elitism subject

I should've completed the thought, "Not everyone's perspective is equally valid," nor should it be.

On Headfi, there are trained engineers, MOTs, musicians, "senior" audiophiles, etc. and some who are just starting out. This is a joyous thing. I respect and relish learning from everybody and everyone. I do not consider everyone to know as much as everyone else, because, you know, they don't.

–Everyone–has an equal right to their perspective–but not to demand that it be regarded on par with someone who's experience they have yet to earn.

An elite is just someone who knows more than you, more than me. When we go to the doctor, we don't say, "Wait a minute doc, I read an article on WebMD and I'd like you to consider my perspective as equally valid" right? They have invested time and effort incomparable to my own to attain a perspective I do not have.

Elit-ism is about using that knowledge to prop up yourself over others. I detest elitism, but I find most us here trying to lift one another up, not pushing each other down. So much of what I've learned I owe to members here and on AS. No one is making money on these threads. They share out of passion for audio and kindness. Not everyone, but most. And, I am immensely grateful for the ones that know so much more than me. I am thankful that we have elites here, both professional and amateur. That's a good part of why I'm here. I take it that's why you are too.

Can I ask you to stop accusing people of being shills, idiots, and dupes? Join and learn. The ride on the crazy train to crazy town, may be filled with crazy people, but it's fun.

 

[TheAttorney]

So i guess now i have to decide if i should hop on the crazy train with cables, reclockers, a dedicated streamer and spend another time and a half the price of the m-scaler to get it to the point where it's actually an upgrade all the time or just keep it as is and upgrade to an all in one later.

Well, from all your recent posts, it's quite clear to me that you should walk away from the m-scaler and move on. There's no point in forcing yourself to like something that you just don't like. Don't worry about it - such things happen all the time. You've proven to yourself that FOMO was unwarranted on this occasion. Maybe try again in a year or two's time, or maybe you'll have moved onto something completely different by then.

It's the correct thing to do to honestly state your observations, even if it goes against the herd (I've done it myself a few times, not always to a great reception). But I do think you should revisit edwardsean's advice on how to react to people questioning your point of view - it will result in a more productive forum discussion.

 

[adrianm]

But I do think you should revisit edwardsean's advice on how to react to people questioning your point of view - it will result in a more productive forum discussion.

How exactly should i react to being ganged on? I just posted my impressions and what i meant about "elitism" i've stated long before that, and it's not just me, it's a general opinion about this thread.

Can I ask you to stop accusing people of being shills, idiots, and dupes? Join and learn. The ride on the crazy train to crazy town, may be filled with crazy people, but it's fun.

When exactly have i done that? I'm just stating my opinions bluntly.

On Headfi, there are trained engineers, MOTs, musicians, "senior" audiophiles, etc. and some who are just starting out. This is a joyous thing. I respect and relish learning from everybody and everyone. I do not consider everyone to know as much as everyone else, because, you know, they don't.

Great, i'd love to meet some of those engineers. I'm sure they're all long gone by now, just like Rob. And i can see why.

An elite is just someone who knows more than you, more than me. When we go to the doctor, we don't say, "Wait a minute doc, I read an article on WebMD and I'd like you to consider my perspective as equally valid" right? They have invested time and effort incomparable to my own to attain a perspective I do not have.

Indeed, i was just trying to be polite and refrain from using the term "snobbery". In most cases it's not people who actually know stuff like engineers, it's just whoever screams the loudest and mob mentality.
In our case it's more like getting your medical advice from Herbalife. Like i said before, for a bunch of so called experts, everyone jumps up when you disagree without any regard for the test conditions in each case. They just reach for the pitchforks.

When i work and someone complains that one of my programs doesn't run as intended i don't tell him to shut up, it works fine because i wrote it and i say so. Or more aptly, that it works fine for other people. I check to see the test conditions and debug it. Granted, it's my job, and this is just a hobby, but since you're comparing this forum to "professional help", if someone did actually care, that's the way to go about it, and the way i do it when someone asks me for advice on hf.
I have a friend here who told me i'm crazy for getting Dave and he tested it himself with the m-scaler ,a Riviera AIC-10 and the Abyss 1266 vs a a 2k Sony TA-ZH1ES driving the Abyss and he thought they sounded exactly the same. I guess i should've just called him a peasant and been on my way. I've tested the music he was using (mostly old heavy metal) and it did kind of sound the same on Airpods Pro as on my setup.

So let's not pretend Dave or any other additions gets us to some untouchable Nirvana all the time. It's all highly situational. If you listen to Mahler all the time and it's worth it for you great, but that's no reason to look down on people who simply don't get the same benefit you do out of your gear.
On Billie Eilish tracks and on a lot of mainstream stuff i found the m-scaler to make close to 0 difference . While i've managed to make it not sound worse, i'd call the improvement 10% at most, and that's on 5% of my playlist (live, acoustic stuff) and only when using my macbook, not my pc.
So the upgrade needs a bunch of upgrades to be an upgrade. And Chord isn't paying me to fix their stuff.
I have nothing personal against you or anyone here. I've just grown frustrated with exaggerations and oversimplifications on this thread. And i do think a lot of people fall for confirmation bias or some need for status, or approval on hf.
I've found your impressions very helpful in deciding not to dive in head first in the m-scaler upgrade bonanza and audition a Bartok first. That's probably the way forward for me when i'll be itching for an upgrade, unless there's a Dave M-scaler (because this one is clearly made for TT2) or some new Dave.