[adrianm]

The improvements (layering, separation, micro-detail, sense of space, etc) are of the kind that could be lost on others, but are sought after by many audiophiles. You should give it some time to burn in, but honestly, this is case where mental burn in is more critical.

I'm really not hearing any of these improvements, just an unnaturally smooth sound. On both headphones. There is just no comparison between what it does and what solo Dave does compared to MTT2, that was an upgrade all across the board.
I still have it for testing for the next few days but so far the thing i most like about it is the passthrough feature. If i have to try really hard to convince myself to spend 3k on it, i'll pass. I wouldn't say it's worth more than 2k, but considering that's the Chord price for a stand...pricing seems about on par.
If you ask me this is where snake oil comes from. Either it blows you away in the start like Dave did, or you're just convincing yourself you should like something just because others say you should. I honestly think you guys are just finding new ways to introduce pleasing distortion.
You mentioned Dave sounding "skeletal " compared to Bartok and pre-upgrade Dave. That just sounds like distortion to me. Just like tubes. I just picked a thicker sounding headphone that's already smooth and i feel i sounds silky smooth and with great soundstage and imaging even compared to these "open backed grails" i keep getting told i should aspire to.
I would honestly buy a second Z1R before any of them . And will if they ever stop production on them. I still have to test the Utopias and Empyreans, but listening to the Lcd-4 today completely dismantled any notion of some superior headphones that reveal these imagined qualities in minute changes for me.
Rob himself said at one point in the beginning you should just pick another headphone if you like a thicker sound. Not why i did it though, had a Mojo back then and wasn't aware of this.

2) Mscaler is an incremental upgrade. Better connection, e.g., Wave or Opto DX is another increment. So is a better power supply, e.g., Poweradd, Farad. As I've shared there is no silver bullet. For major improvements you have to think and invest systemically. Let's say you come to like what Msclaer does but still find the "mushy" tradeoff unacceptable. Then you have to think through how to retain the benefits of Mscaler while "correcting" the smoothing/softening aspect. It's together that all these incremental moves compound into something dramatic, so much so that when you take them out you can't imagine going back.

I guess we're different here, i don't have the time or patience to tinker with Chord's products, if this is the promise and the direction Chord's heading, and the sound of the next dac flagship i'll probably check out the competition before upgrading.
Either way, say i DID like it. My mains filter has a much bigger (and positive ) impact on the way Dave sounds than the M-scaler does. So does my silver headphone cable. If i do keep tinkering it will probably with a better filter/cable depending on how the power will be at the new place.

I think Dave is the only thing so far that is worth it's hype.

 

[Hooster]

I know this is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way but here goes :
I genuinely dislike what the M-scaler does. Even if i did like it, the changes are so tiny that i wouldn't pay more than 1k for it. Or for my preferences, to get rid of it.
With the Aryas it's not that bad, but the Z1R are already really smooth and it's just way too mushy. I found it brought more improvement to the TT2 when i auditioned them together.
I can't understand why people spend so much money on improving this incremental " improvement " to Dave, let alone cables and power supplies for it. I'd honestly rather get a second Dave for work instead.
I knew people will cry "Mid-Fi" so i also tested some LCD-4Z's with Dave, i like how similar they sound to my Z1R , but i find them "almost as good" in all aspects, with a smaller soundstage. Not even close to better, i actually like the Aryas better than the 4z's, maybe because they're a bit different to the Z1r. I also find them a cut below in detail retrieval, even though they sound a bit more open, apparently that doesn't mean larger soundstage or better imaging.
My Gf also came to the same conclusions so at least if i'm crazy, there's 2 of us and we found each other LOL.
I just have the Utopias and Empyreans left to audition and them i'm done testing until new flagships come out. And a new Dave. If i do upgrade, it'll be either that or a Bartok depending on when i get to audition one.

I have to admit, I have never tried an Mscaler but what I have read about it has suggested to me that this is some ultra game changer and well worth the high price. You are saying that the Mscaler actually makes things worse. Thanks for your honest opinion on this, it is much appreciated.
I have had this kind of experience with other hi-fi products, that initially seem to be doing something amazing but turn out to make things worse once the dust has settled.

 

[adrianm]

I have to admit, I have never tried an Mscaler but what I have read about it has suggested to me that this is some ultra game changer and well worth the high price. You are saying that the Mscaler actually makes things worse. Thanks for your honest opinion on this, it is much appreciated.
I have had this kind of experience with other hi-fi products, that initially seem to be doing something amazing but turn out to make things worse once the dust has settled.

I do advise that you hear it for yourself, the fact that i don't like it is subjective and ymmv, but like i said, i find the difference it makes extremely subtle.
It just feels like it tries too hard to fill in the gaps, like there's less space between notes, guitars have less bite, there's less silence. Say you have a guitar and a piano in the same song, it's like it tries to fill in the gaps between the piano notes and the guitar notes by adding them up, splitting difference and filling in the gap.
Some say it sounds more "atmospheric" , it just sounds...wrong to me. I'm aware that in a live performance instruments aren't in a vacuum but the way it does this just sounds way to smooth and unnatural to me. This is on the full upsampling setting, i haven't really noticed any difference with the first two steps. They just sound really close to the original 44.1 so...why bother.
More than anything this has made me curious to audition a Bartok before my next upgrade and see how they do things and how exactly the external cloak approach differs. Not that i'm going to be spending Rossini levels of money anytime soon. I probably would do that instead of endless tinkering though, i think sometimes less is more.
I'm super happy with the way my setup sounds at the moment though and if i wanted something different i would just look for products that fill the bill.
Why should buying stuff be like an arranged marriage, where you have to convince yourself to be happy with your choice?

 

[edwardsean]

I'm really not hearing any of these improvements, just an unnaturally smooth sound. On both headphones. There is just no comparison between what it does and what solo Dave does compared to MTT2, that was an upgrade all across the board.
I still have it for testing for the next few days but so far the thing i most like about it is the passthrough feature. If i have to try really hard to convince myself to spend 3k on it, i'll pass. I wouldn't say it's worth more than 2k, but considering that's the Chord price for a stand...pricing seems about on par.
If you ask me this is where snake oil comes from. Either it blows you away in the start like Dave did, or you're just convincing yourself you should like something just because others say you should. I honestly think you guys are just finding new ways to introduce pleasing distortion.
You mentioned Dave sounding "skeletal " compared to Bartok and pre-upgrade Dave. That just sounds like distortion to me. Just like tubes. I just picked a thicker sounding headphone that's already smooth and i feel i sounds silky smooth and with great soundstage and imaging even compared to these "open backed grails" i keep getting told i should aspire to.
I would honestly buy a second Z1R before any of them . And will if they ever stop production on them. I still have to test the Utopias and Empyreans, but listening to the Lcd-4 today completely dismantled any notion of some superior headphones that reveal these imagined qualities in minute changes for me.
Rob himself said at one point in the beginning you should just pick another headphone if you like a thicker sound. Not why i did it though, had a Mojo back then and wasn't aware of this.

I guess we're different here, i don't have the time or patience to tinker with Chord's products, if this is the promise and the direction Chord's heading, and the sound of the next dac flagship i'll probably check out the competition before upgrading.
Either way, say i DID like it. My mains filter has a much bigger (and positive ) impact on the way Dave sounds than the M-scaler does. So does my silver headphone cable. If i do keep tinkering it will probably with a better filter/cable depending on how the power will be at the new place.

I think Dave is the only thing so far that is worth it's hype.

Well, sincerely, best of luck to you.

 

[adrianm]

Well, sincerely, best of luck to you.

Thanks , same
I have to say it does feel liberating having tested this stuff and finally being able to put it to rest and move on to other things. This whole fear of missing out because of gear is the worst part of this hobby

 

[number1sixerfan]

I'm really not hearing any of these improvements, just an unnaturally smooth sound. On both headphones. There is just no comparison between what it does and what solo Dave does compared to MTT2, that was an upgrade all across the board.
I still have it for testing for the next few days but so far the thing i most like about it is the passthrough feature. If i have to try really hard to convince myself to spend 3k on it, i'll pass. I wouldn't say it's worth more than 2k, but considering that's the Chord price for a stand...pricing seems about on par.
If you ask me this is where snake oil comes from. Either it blows you away in the start like Dave did, or you're just convincing yourself you should like something just because others say you should. I honestly think you guys are just finding new ways to introduce pleasing distortion.
You mentioned Dave sounding "skeletal " compared to Bartok and pre-upgrade Dave. That just sounds like distortion to me. Just like tubes. I just picked a thicker sounding headphone that's already smooth and i feel i sounds silky smooth and with great soundstage and imaging even compared to these "open backed grails" i keep getting told i should aspire to.
I would honestly buy a second Z1R before any of them . And will if they ever stop production on them. I still have to test the Utopias and Empyreans, but listening to the Lcd-4 today completely dismantled any notion of some superior headphones that reveal these imagined qualities in minute changes for me.
Rob himself said at one point in the beginning you should just pick another headphone if you like a thicker sound. Not why i did it though, had a Mojo back then and wasn't aware of this.

I'm sorry, not at all trying to be rude. But most of your posts have the same theme to them. You discrediting the value of any and all gear to convince yourself that it simply can't be worth it because you rather not (have to) buy anything else. If you don't want to buy anything else, just don't. There's really no need to disingenuously try to convince everyone else..

With higher end gear, it's pretty much well understood that the improvements to price ratio is not linear as you move up... (i.e. expecting a performance jump similar as the TT2 to Dave from the Mscaler just doesn't make sense. But again if not worth it to you, just don't buy it)

I have to admit, I have never tried an Mscaler but what I have read about it has suggested to me that this is some ultra game changer and well worth the high price. You are saying that the Mscaler actually makes things worse. Thanks for your honest opinion on this, it is much appreciated.
I have had this kind of experience with other hi-fi products, that initially seem to be doing something amazing but turn out to make things worse once the dust has settled.

I would honestly have to call bs on the Mscaler making things worse. I can't at all imagine someone hearing it with Chord DACs and saying it makes things worse. Like at all lol

What is true is that the effect is not drastic. It feels more of like the icing on the cake so to speak, maybe that last 10-15% of optimized performance (same as @edwardsean said; spacing, separation, perceived detail etc). I do agree that it could be priced better, and could live without it for sure if I had to. But I am sorry, making things worse? Not at all lol

 

[Ciggavelli]

I have to laugh at some of @adrianm ’s posts

1) He said we should trust Rob on everything. A few weeks later, Rob’s M-Scaler is snake oil

2) He only gives the m-scaler 1 day of listening. Says everybody else is making up the improvements we hear with the M-Scaler

3) Has some sort of love affair with his Sony closed-back.

4) Says he tried the LCD-4z, but only at the shop. Doesn’t give his ears time to adjust to the new sound.

5) Tells everybody their ears are wrong, and we are mistaking distortion for a sound quality improvement.


I have suspected he was a troll in the past, and I think his posts in here prove it.

 

[adrianm]

aaaaand there it is, why no one dares say anything bad about Chord. The zealots line up.
Just to clarify, there have been others that didn't like the m-scaler, they just wanted to avoid this.

I'm sorry, not at all trying to be rude. But most of your posts have the same theme to them. You discrediting the value of any and all gear to convince yourself that it simply can't be worth it because you rather not (have to) buy anything else. If you don't want to buy anything else, just don't. There's really no need to disingenuously try to convince everyone else..

The only reason i've said anything is because of the crass elitism on this thread. People constantly try to convince others that YOU NEED all this crap, and then you need to modify it without having the faintest clue about what you're doing.

1) He said we should trust Rob on everything. A few weeks later, Rob’s M-Scaler is snake oil

I didn't say it's snake oil, i said i don't like the approach. Everything he said and people here called bull on was accurate and i'd take his word over yours any day.

2) He only gives the m-scaler 1 day of listening. Says everybody else is making up the improvements we hear with the M-Scaler

I still have it, i still will but i doubt my impressions will change. Like i said, this isn't an arranged marriage. You say "improvements" , i say "changes". What can i say, maybe i don't have "golden ears like you lot "

4) Says he tried the LCD-4z, but only at the shop. Doesn’t give his ears time to adjust to the new sound.

It sounded worse than the Arya to me, why take them home instead of the Aryas?

5) Tells everybody their ears are wrong, and we are mistaking distortion for a sound quality improvement.

That was all Rob, i had no idea what you're imagining , but makes sense It's like you buy a Tesla and try to make it into a Mustang when comparing it to the Bartok. Just buy the damn Mustang if you like it so much.

I have suspected he was a troll in the past, and I think his posts in here prove it.

No, some of us aren't retired yet, and i hate forums for obvious reasons. Weren't you the guy telling Rob that DAVE sucks compared to Bartok?
What are you still doing here? Talk about trolling.

3) Has some sort of love affair with his Sony closed-back.

Indeed,best thing except for Dave there's plenty of people who own...everything, and prefer them. Even if there weren't, who cares? Just because Tyll crap on them a few months before admitting he's half deaf and retiring doesn't mean they suck Plenty of people who know what they're talking about like them, Guttenberg, Stereophile people, etc.
I'm sorry, next headphones i get will be something to please the head-fi elders.

I would honestly have to call bs on the Mscaler making things worse. I can't at all imagine someone hearing it with Chord DACs and saying it makes things worse. Like at all lol

What is true is that the effect is not drastic. It feels more of like the icing on the cake so to speak, maybe that last 10-15% of optimized performance (same as @edwardsean said; spacing, separation, perceived detail etc). I do agree that it could be priced better, and could live without it for sure if I had to. But I am sorry, making things worse? Not at all lol

I'll keep trying to hear that better detail and separation i'm supposed to hear. I did hear it first time i tested the M-scaler, with the TT2. I'm not with Dave now. It's just smoothing and nothing else.
I'd be delighted to find out there's something wrong and that's why i'm not hearing it. Not sure what setting might be missing. Soundstage only increases a bit in width with CF0, but by the same amount that does when using CF1.
If i keep upsampling to max and use CF1 as i usually do the soundstage actually diminishes. So what, they're mutually exclusive? I can't hear it doing anything different than crosfeed. It just pans instruments to the left, right.
CF2 honestly sounds about the same with it on or off, but CF3 does sound a bit blurrier with it off. So the only thing i do find it improving is CF0 (width and separation ) and CF3 (clarity).
Edif : nvm, just CF0, i still prefer CF3 with it off in most cases.

 

[Articnoise]

I have no horses in this race . What I have heard is that the M-scaler improves certain things but that it also worsens other aspects, at least if you do not fix its RF discharge. It is by now well documented here (I think) that some treatment between the M-scaler and DAVE can and will reduce most of the RFI. Have you done anything to reduce the output of RF or are you just ignoring it out of principle?

 

[adrianm]

I have no horses in this race . What I have heard is that the M-scaler improves certain things but that it also worsens other aspects, at least if you do not fix its RF discharge. It is by now well documented here (I think) that some treatment between the M-scaler and DAVE can and will reduce most of the RFI. Have you done anything to reduce the output of RF or are you just ignoring it out of principle?

It's just on loan for the weekend so now, my dealer did recommend some Crystal Diamond Digit Bnc cables as a solid upgrade over the stock ones. but they weren't in stock so i'm using the ones that came with the m-scaler. Also for some reason my optical cable won't click in for the life of it and the stock one is too short.
I'm aware of the endless fixes it supposedly needs.

 

[Articnoise]

It's just on loan for the weekend so now, my dealer did recommend some Crystal Diamond Digit Bnc cables as a solid upgrade over the stock ones. but they weren't in stock so i'm using the ones that came with the m-scaler. Also for some reason my optical cable won't click in for the life of it and the stock one is too short.
I'm aware of the endless fixes it supposedly needs.

I totally get it is on loan, but the question is if you have tested the M-scaler under the right/optimal conditions. It has been reported great improvement if you put on some ferrites cores on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. Ferrite cores is relatively inexpensive.

Just sayin...

 

[adrianm]

I totally get it is on loan, but the question is if you have tested the M-scaler under the right/optimal conditions. It has been reported great improvement if you put on some ferrites cores on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. Ferrite cores is relatively inexpensive.

Just sayin...

It's not a cost issue, there's just no place to get them in time for testing. If i do somehow end up buying it i'm aware i'm going to need some Wave cables or similar, that's been factored in from the start.
On some tracks there is indeed a bit more space and the sound does open up a bit, i am starting to distinguish between that and the way crossfeed does it , my problem is that there's also a veil of softness thrown over everything.
In songs where there's just vocals and an instrument for example and nothing to position there's just the softness and no upside from my pov. I'm not sure if ferrites would lift that veil.

 

[Articnoise]

It's not a cost issue, there's just no place to get them in time for testing. If i do somehow end up buying it i'm aware i'm going to need some Wave cables or similar, that's been factored in from the start.
On some tracks there is indeed a bit more space and the sound does open up a bit, i am starting to distinguish between that and the way crossfeed does it , my problem is that there's also a veil of softness thrown over everything.
In songs where there's just vocals and an instrument for example and nothing to position there's just the softness and no upside from my pov. I'm not sure if ferrites would lift that veil.

It’s easy. Ask to loan it again this time with the recommended cable. Or get some ferrite cores (good to have IMO) put them on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. If you don’t like how it sounds return the M-scaler. If you like it better you have to start test which different treatment/cable to see/hear which sounds best to you.

 

[adrianm]

It’s easy. Ask to loan it again this time with the recommended cable. Or get some ferrite cores (good to have IMO) put them on the BNC cable between the M-scaler and DAC. If you don’t like how it sounds return the M-scaler. If you like it better you have to start test which different treatment/cable to see/hear which sounds best to you.

I might have gone in expecting too much i guess. I might try them at a later date but i fundamentally hate what it does, it feels to me like one of those smoothness filters on instagram. Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Susan Werner, all vocals in general sound smoothed out to me to the point that it sounds artificial and it feels like there's less dynamic range in general.

 

[saudio7]

But is in it that in m-scaler we should expect all issues solve which we notice in BluII ?
I don’t like this that we have to invest so much more to get all those improvements