Chord Electronics - Blu Mk. 2 - The Official Thread
Jul 5, 2018 at 9:54 AM Post #3,661 of 4,904
Crossposting from the DAVE thread as I should really have posted this in the Blu 2 thread

So I spent a second evening listening to my Blu2/DAVE/Utopia set-up with @Triode User 's WAVE cables and I have to say I am very impressed. If we roll back a few months I was a cable sceptic. In fact for some purposes I still am. When companies like Audioquest describe a digital interconnect as having a defined bass or open treble my blood boils. That being said, I learned something new when it came to Blu2 and DAVE, that there are challenges of RF/EMI between mains powered interconnecting devices, and that interference becomes audible in the downstream analogue electronics.

Now many of us with a Blu2 have a tendency to be perfectionist and want to get that last few percent of sound improvement. And a good fair number of us have played with different cables. I went from the stock cable to Alvin's cables (Canare cable with Neutrik connectors) to Audioquest Carbon and of course a play with ferrites. I refused to do a total cable ferrite solution due to the ugliness of it all but @Rob Watts had mentioned noticeable improvement with 1-2 at the DAVE end and my experience agrees. For whatever reason, the Audioquest Carbon cables were far better than the stock and Canare ones at reducing the brightness added by the RF/EMI from Blu2, particularly with the ferrites. But there was still what I call "fizz" audible particularly on vocals. I realize fizz is an odd choice of words, but it is describing something that sounds modulating and changing as the inflection of the voice changes as opposed to just an aggressive harshness in the treble.

I was tempted by the original Clearer Audio group buy deal but realized it would be an expensive spend that would probably result in an ugly ferrite solution still like @etnt showed (no offense etnt!). So when @Triode User showed his "integrated" ferrite cable solution I was quick to reach out to him to see if would be setting up shop to make these for others.

So as I showed a couple of days ago in this thread I went for the naked version of the cable where you can see the ferrite shape but because the are a part of the cable they are not bulky and ugly and simply look like an interesting and special cable design. As I mentioned then, I was surprised by how heavy and substantial they were, but then I had never applied 20 ferrites to a cable before. You have to be a bit careful not to over bend these but the have enough flexibility to be used in most situations. Nick recommends a 1m length so that there are enough ferrites integrated along the length of the cable.

To put it simply, I believe I am cured! By that I mean that I can no longer hear any fizziness to vocals and my need for cable tinkering is over. A fairly recent album I have been listening to is Hailey Tuck's jazz album Junk. The issue with vocals was very clear from track 1 with my previous cables but totally absent with the WAVE cable. For me this was a subtle but annoying issue that once I tuned into, couldn't tune it out. Its absence was a great relief. I then shifted to playing a CD of Melody Gardot's Live in Europe album and simulcasting a FLAC rip of it using my Aries G2 streamer. This album is a great way of showing off what Blu 2 can do as the depth of the stage dramatically increases with the M Scaler technology. I struggled to hear a difference between USB and CD. I would probably still give the slightest edge to the CD but I think this is due to an issue with Blu 2's USB handling vs CD and absolute parity may not be possible. But without A/B comparing it I don't believe anyone would ever notice. It is worth noting that the Aries G2 has galvanic isolation on its USB output.

I will do more USB vs CD tests, but overall the WAVE High Fidelity Storm cables have allowed me to get to a point where I stop analyzing the music and just focus on "listening" to it
 
Jul 5, 2018 at 12:34 PM Post #3,662 of 4,904
Ha ha, I know just what you mean about "fizz" in vocals. I always called it "fuzzy" as in "fuzzy vocals" but it is the first thing I listen for.
This is primary factor in making music sound natural to me.
Thanks for highlighting this.

(I also called it a "continuous" aspect of vocals and also string instrument, or any sustained note.)
Nothing like a little fizzy logic here...
 
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Jul 5, 2018 at 5:10 PM Post #3,663 of 4,904
The need for ferrites merely demonstrates a fault in the design of the DAC, though. DACs have always had this problem: you will find reports on the web from back in the 90s which clearly relate that lowered RFI makes DACs sound better in pretty much every way.

When I compared them side-by-side, DAVE and Hugo TT differed quite substantially in noise modulation, "fizz", when fed from the same source, with DAVE being vastly better - this was a big factor in my decision to buy DAVE. Frankly, after a while I found TT to be unpleasant in this regard, it was a real annoyance. They both have the same galvanic isolation, so there's something else going on there internally...

Now playing: Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Relax
 
Jul 5, 2018 at 7:09 PM Post #3,664 of 4,904
The need for ferrites merely demonstrates a fault in the design of the DAC, though. DACs have always had this problem: you will find reports on the web from back in the 90s which clearly relate that lowered RFI makes DACs sound better in pretty much every way.

When I compared them side-by-side, DAVE and Hugo TT differed quite substantially in noise modulation, "fizz", when fed from the same source, with DAVE being vastly better - this was a big factor in my decision to buy DAVE. Frankly, after a while I found TT to be unpleasant in this regard, it was a real annoyance. They both have the same galvanic isolation, so there's something else going on there internally...

Now playing: Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Relax

If DACs have always had this problem, is it a fault in the design of the DAC?

How does a DAC designer overcome this issue -- I'm sure Rob would like to know!
 
Jul 5, 2018 at 8:59 PM Post #3,665 of 4,904
If DACs have always had this problem, is it a fault in the design of the DAC?
The reference status of the optical digital input in Chord's current DACs points to the DAC being the problem. And this mirrors the use of optical in many "high-end" DACs in the 90s.

Other problems seen in the history of DACs:
  • jitter sensitivity
  • frequency/transient response errors
  • non-linearity
Now playing: Nils Økland - Månelyst
 
Jul 5, 2018 at 10:48 PM Post #3,666 of 4,904
Crossposting from the DAVE thread as I should really have posted this in the Blu 2 thread

So I spent a second evening listening to my Blu2/DAVE/Utopia set-up with @Triode User 's WAVE cables and I have to say I am very impressed. If we roll back a few months I was a cable sceptic. In fact for some purposes I still am. When companies like Audioquest describe a digital interconnect as having a defined bass or open treble my blood boils. That being said, I learned something new when it came to Blu2 and DAVE, that there are challenges of RF/EMI between mains powered interconnecting devices, and that interference becomes audible in the downstream analogue electronics.

Now many of us with a Blu2 have a tendency to be perfectionist and want to get that last few percent of sound improvement. And a good fair number of us have played with different cables. I went from the stock cable to Alvin's cables (Canare cable with Neutrik connectors) to Audioquest Carbon and of course a play with ferrites. I refused to do a total cable ferrite solution due to the ugliness of it all but @Rob Watts had mentioned noticeable improvement with 1-2 at the DAVE end and my experience agrees. For whatever reason, the Audioquest Carbon cables were far better than the stock and Canare ones at reducing the brightness added by the RF/EMI from Blu2, particularly with the ferrites. But there was still what I call "fizz" audible particularly on vocals. I realize fizz is an odd choice of words, but it is describing something that sounds modulating and changing as the inflection of the voice changes as opposed to just an aggressive harshness in the treble.

I was tempted by the original Clearer Audio group buy deal but realized it would be an expensive spend that would probably result in an ugly ferrite solution still like @etnt showed (no offense etnt!). So when @Triode User showed his "integrated" ferrite cable solution I was quick to reach out to him to see if would be setting up shop to make these for others.

So as I showed a couple of days ago in this thread I went for the naked version of the cable where you can see the ferrite shape but because the are a part of the cable they are not bulky and ugly and simply look like an interesting and special cable design. As I mentioned then, I was surprised by how heavy and substantial they were, but then I had never applied 20 ferrites to a cable before. You have to be a bit careful not to over bend these but the have enough flexibility to be used in most situations. Nick recommends a 1m length so that there are enough ferrites integrated along the length of the cable.

To put it simply, I believe I am cured! By that I mean that I can no longer hear any fizziness to vocals and my need for cable tinkering is over. A fairly recent album I have been listening to is Hailey Tuck's jazz album Junk. The issue with vocals was very clear from track 1 with my previous cables but totally absent with the WAVE cable. For me this was a subtle but annoying issue that once I tuned into, couldn't tune it out. Its absence was a great relief. I then shifted to playing a CD of Melody Gardot's Live in Europe album and simulcasting a FLAC rip of it using my Aries G2 streamer. This album is a great way of showing off what Blu 2 can do as the depth of the stage dramatically increases with the M Scaler technology. I struggled to hear a difference between USB and CD. I would probably still give the slightest edge to the CD but I think this is due to an issue with Blu 2's USB handling vs CD and absolute parity may not be possible. But without A/B comparing it I don't believe anyone would ever notice. It is worth noting that the Aries G2 has galvanic isolation on its USB output.

I will do more USB vs CD tests, but overall the WAVE High Fidelity Storm cables have allowed me to get to a point where I stop analyzing the music and just focus on "listening" to it
No offense take, Nick's cables do look much better.

My take after several days of listening, I do not hear a significant difference between the WAVE and CAFF (ca full ferrite), it could be me or my chain, but at this point I'm happy and unlikely to pursue BNC cables further.

Pros of WAVE:
Looks neater, nicer
When you take into consideration the need to purchase ferrites for other cables, it's actually cheaper.
More flexible than a CAFF, and lighter.
Probably the end for most in terms of BNC.

Cons:
If you are just want to tinker around, you cannot change the ferrites. You just have to trust of us who used it that it's THAT good.
 
Jul 6, 2018 at 12:39 AM Post #3,667 of 4,904
I just wanted to put in another nice word for the (Audioquest) Jitterbug with DAVE. It really does relax things in the upper mids (the digital shout region) nicely.

I can now listen entirely in bit-perfect mode in JRiver with no annoying glare.
I am getting really good results with my LCD4 and HE1000v2 headphones.

I gave a try to optical, but for some reason the bass seemed sloppier to I went back to USB.
It may be an unfair test though because I use an Audioquest Diamond USB cable and just used a generic optical cable (both at 2 meters, so the length may be an issue too).
 
Jul 6, 2018 at 4:51 AM Post #3,669 of 4,904
The reference status of the optical digital input in Chord's current DACs points to the DAC being the problem. And this mirrors the use of optical in many "high-end" DACs in the 90s.

Other problems seen in the history of DACs:
  • jitter sensitivity
  • frequency/transient response errors
  • non-linearity
Now playing: Nils Økland - Månelyst

So are you suggesting that Rob redesign the Dave, and presumably design a new m-scaler, which allows for optical connection between the two? Would current optical technology allow for this?
 
Jul 6, 2018 at 11:36 AM Post #3,670 of 4,904
So are you suggesting that Rob redesign the Dave, and presumably design a new m-scaler, which allows for optical connection between the two? Would current optical technology allow for this?

I think this IS the right way to go. There are certainly fast enough fibre optic link standards available today and they are used to provide up to 10Gbit networking etc.

For USB, Dave is already pretty good when it comes to its galvanic isolation. The effects of USB cable choice (and ferrites) has a fairly minimal impact. Of course the isolation is not perfect and the effect is proportional to the noise coming from the laptop or streamer.

However with Blu 2 the galvanic isolation of the BNC outputs doesn't seem to clear up enough of the RF and it seems to be worse when using the Blu 2 USB input which I never understood because without disconnecting the USB cable, the CD sounds better. Fortunately there are ferrite based solutions for this but I can't help but think part of the reason this is so noticeable relates to the rush to get USB into Blu2 which was a late breaking addition.
 
Jul 6, 2018 at 1:26 PM Post #3,671 of 4,904
For USB, Dave is already pretty good when it comes to its galvanic isolation.
It would be nice if that was true.

The effects of USB cable choice (and ferrites) has a fairly minimal impact.
That would also be nice if it was true.

However with Blu 2 the galvanic isolation of the BNC outputs doesn't seem to clear up enough of the RF and it seems to be worse when using the Blu 2 USB input which I never understood because without disconnecting the USB cable, the CD sounds better.
Is this true regardless of whether music is being sent by the digital source over the USB connection while a CD is playing?

Fortunately there are ferrite based solutions for this but I can't help but think part of the reason this is so noticeable relates to the rush to get USB into Blu2 which was a late breaking addition.
I reckon you're not the first to think that...

Now playing: Grizzly Bear - Knife
 
Jul 7, 2018 at 1:29 AM Post #3,672 of 4,904
Going back to the theme of alternative BNC interconnect cables, I've just had the opportunity to audition Nicks (Triode user) WAVE Fidelity cables.

Before I continue, I just want to say that until this week we had never met before and I have no affiliation with WAVE Fidelity.

Seeing how people have been experimenting with ferrites and alternative BNC cables to reduce/eliminate any RF, I was keen to hear if the WAVE cables sounded any better than my current Chord Signature (with additional ferrites) ones. So I contacted Nick, through this forum, and being as it turned out we don't live to far apart he invited me around for an audition. Also his front end (Innuos SE, BLU2 and DAVE) is identical to mine so I knew that if there were going to be any improvements, they would be carried across to my system.

I think that what Nick has achieved with the WAVE cables is quite remarkable, taking on the big boys at their own game. The quality of construction is second to none and they come presented in a professional looking case. Straight away I could appreciate the difference between the WAVE and Chord, with the former having a much sweeter and better defined treble without any of the fatiguing harshness due to the RF.
I'm most definitely sold and have placed an order.
My understanding is that Nick offers the WAVE cables with a money back guarantee, and I will be surprised to hear if he ever gets any returned.

The bottom line is that I can highly recommend the WAVE cables to anyone looking for an upgrade and wanting to reduce the tiresome RF.
 
Jul 7, 2018 at 9:42 PM Post #3,673 of 4,904
What price do they start from out of interest.
 
Jul 8, 2018 at 1:33 AM Post #3,674 of 4,904
What price do they start from out of interest.

As this is a specific request hopefully I am allowed to respond under Head-Fi rules, £1650 UKP per 1m pair inclusive of worldwide delivery less current 15% introductory discount, PM me for further details.

(mods please tell me if I am off piste here, I have no intention of infringing rules)
 
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Jul 9, 2018 at 10:51 AM Post #3,675 of 4,904
As this is a specific request hopefully I am allowed to respond under Head-Fi rules, £1650 UKP per 1m pair inclusive of worldwide delivery less current 15% introductory discount, PM me for further details.

(mods please tell me if I am off piste here, I have no intention of infringing rules)

That’s an incredible amount of money. About a fifth of the cost of a Blu2. Can you justify it in terms of the component cost, the labour, the equipment needed to manufacture? Do you have any measurements that demonstrate the effectiveness of the RFI reduction?
 
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