[flyte3333]

To those grounding their DAVE:

Please excuse my ignorance but I thought DAVE's earth pin is continuous with the PCB ground planes?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-399#post-13070815

So why are people grounding DAVE via BNC / XLR ?

I don't at all question the improvements people are hearing but I'm just trying to understand possible mechanisms for this improved SQ. If Dave's PCB planes are already grounded, I'm trying to understand how a 2nd grounding point/path for Dave can help (and not actually hurt).

I must be missing something obvious so please be gentle

Edit: I posted this in the Dave thread an hour ago, when it should have been here. And I see Triode is asking the same question - how is a 2nd grounding path helping?

I thought the more (redundant) grounding paths you add to a system, the more potential for issues - ground / leakage current loops / RF pick-up

 

[dmance]

I don't own a DAVE but i have experience with grounding in my system using Nordost QKore and it was demonstrated to me, quite audibly, how the path of least resistance, even by a few milli-ohms, is where the stray current flows: hookup ordinary wire ...little change, hookup their ultra low resistance mono-filament grounding wire ...big change. Hence, I bought the product, regardless of the insane cost.

 

[romaz]

I would say that DAVE's XLR input would be the first socket to try such a grounding test...

I will need to give the XLR input a try, thanks. I tried the XLR output and didn't notice any difference compared to BNC. One thing to note with signal grounding (and not chassis grounding) is that you have to be connected to the signal and when headphones are inserted into DAVE's headphone jack, signal from XLR output is cut off and so perhaps the XLR input is always live. Regardless, it does appear components have preferred routes for signal grounding that are not always obvious and further highlights the need to listen and compare rather than to make assumptions.

BTW, weren't you meant to be retiring from more hifi changes?.

No, just retiring from forum activity. Thursday is my last day.

 

[TheAttorney]

I have measured an identical resistance of 0.009 ohm between the earth mains socket pin on my Dave to the earth pin on the XLR digital input, XLR outputs, RCA outputs and BNC inputs /outputs(and also to the Dave chassis itself). With this low earth continuity resistance measurement in mind it is difficult to see how any extra earth drain wire to any of these inputs/outputs pins can have any influence or divert any RF grounding by way of an additional earth drain wire.

I also would have expected that there shouldn't have been any difference between any of these sockets. I was half expecting Rob to chime in to say something like they are all connected to exactly the same point.
I did hear differences with all the sockets, compared to no ground at all, it's just that with the RCA and XLR outputs the differences seemed inconclusive with repreated A/B testing, whereas the Input XLR more clearly (literally) showed this effect. It's still not perfect though, I could still do with bit more smoothness to my overall sound. But this could be attributed to the point Jawed made earlier: Add some ferrites and you get to point of hyper-detail, but you need to keep adding more ferrites to add smoothness to that detail. I only had about 8 ferrites available at the time. Another el-cheapo set is in it's way now on a slow boat from China.

I first tried my DIY grounding cable direct to a wall socket, as recommended by Gutwire, but I very slightly prefered it going to my Audience TSS plc. Can't explain why. The Audience does claim to be a low impedance design, and maybe its individually cap-filtered sockets are helping reduce RFI?

But picture this: I have DAVE plugged into a TSS socket, and a thin, low cost, grounding cable connected into the very next socket. At DAVE's end there is 0.009 ohms difference between sockets ground and mains ground. The grounding cable should not make any difference at all. It just doesn't make sense, but I stand by my subjective observations. The best I can think of is that the extra RFI filtration on the grounding cable is adding to all the other RFI filtration already in place. I'm not claiming any of my informal tests are conclusive - just food for thought.

Edit: the freebie no-name RCA plug and cable was incredibly weedy, whereas the XLR "pro" microphone cable was thicker and had solid Neutrik plugs, so that's an extra variable. But when I compared XLR input and output sockets, that was using the opposite ends of the same cable, so that was a fair comparison.

 

[Triode User]

At DAVE's end there is 0.009 ohms difference between sockets ground and mains ground.

Just a bit more on this. I have two Daves available to me. I have just measured the other one and get 0.16 ohm between all of the earth pins and mains earth socket on the chassis. I have gone back and measured the first Dave and still get 0.009 ohm again (well 0.010 ohm so near enough the same). So, they are both low, just a bit different.

 

[Beolab]

Group Buy
Clearer Audio Silver Line Optimus Reference Coax 75 ohm digital

e-mail Darren at enquiries@cleareraudio.com with your User Name and the length you need, and your other details to complete the purchase with 20% discount.

( Opportunity for DAVE + Blu II owners )



If we order 5-10 pairs 2x BNC from Clearer Audio ,then Darren will give us 20% in discount at checkout.

( If we buy more than 10 pairs then he can stretch it slightly more, but he said that the margin is not that high because of the already fairly low price, and because of the expensive 6N silver he is using. )

When we have reached 5 or more members who are willing to go ahead and purchase
2x CA Silver Reference BNC - BNC, then i will contact Darren at Clearer Audio, and then afterwords each of you can e-mail Darren at enquiries@cleareraudio.com with your User Name and the lenght you need, and your other details to complete the purchase with 20% discount.

Please PM me If you are interested!

Deadline for the group buy is set to:
20/3-2018

Members that has shown interest for a group buy is:

@Beolab Captain
@Clive101 OK
@adyc OK
@STR-1 OK
@yakaway OK
@etnt OK
@hattrick15 OK

 

[hmartin]

I will need to give the XLR input a try, thanks. I tried the XLR output and didn't notice any difference compared to BNC. One thing to note with signal grounding (and not chassis grounding) is that you have to be connected to the signal and when headphones are inserted into DAVE's headphone jack, signal from XLR output is cut off and so perhaps the XLR input is always live. Regardless, it does appear components have preferred routes for signal grounding that are not always obvious and further highlights the need to listen and compare rather than to make assumptions.



No, just retiring from forum activity. Thursday is my last day.

No much time left, very sad to see you leave but feel personally that it is more healthy to just enjoy wonderful music through Robs master pieces than spend time comparing stuff.

I am sure that I am not the only one thinking about if we should wait for the pulse array power amps or go for a M-scalar. So do you have some feeling for the the loss from inserting the XA60.8s compared to the gain from adding the Blu MK2? I.e. would you chose Dave+Omega Alnicos or pick BluDave+xa60.8+Omega Alnicos?

 

[Fredoo]

I predict neither the DX3 nor the Zenith SE will be state of the art in 2019. In fact, I am confident they will both be leapfrogged in 1 year's time based on prototypes I have been made aware of. If you are looking for value that will last, the upper echelon music servers are not where it's at.

Hi Romaz, do you think the new Antipodes CX server will also be leapfrogged shortly?

I’m in the market for an one box solution. After a rather long search the new Antipodes line up appears on the horizon. Based on comparisons between a full SOtM stable and the Antipodes DX/3 over at CA (tldr: about equal), the new antipodes CX looks very very promising. Antipodes ranks the CX above the current DX/3 (“The CX delivers stunning sound quality, exceeding the audio performance of even the excellent DX”).

So I’m most interested if the CX is also on your leapfrog radar I realise products are constantly improved, but I would hate it if shortly after purchase a ground breaking next generation is just around the corner.. I would appreciate if you can share your thoughts.

Kind regards, Fred

 

[audio_1]

Just a bit more on this. I have two Daves available to me. I have just measured the other one and get 0.16 ohm between all of the earth pins and mains earth socket on the chassis. I have gone back and measured the first Dave and still get 0.009 ohm again (well 0.010 ohm so near enough the same). So, they are both low, just a bit different.

I believe that the most important thing is ground impedance. The earth wire on an audiophile power cord should be at least 4 mm² even if the live and neutral are only 2.5 mm². Some of the best sounding power cords in my opinion are configured like this. If the earth impedance of the power cord is low enough, additional earthing should make no difference.

 

[Jawed]

Just a bit more on this. I have two Daves available to me. I have just measured the other one and get 0.16 ohm between all of the earth pins and mains earth socket on the chassis. I have gone back and measured the first Dave and still get 0.009 ohm again (well 0.010 ohm so near enough the same). So, they are both low, just a bit different.

Is there much of a difference in age between these two DAVEs?

Now playing: Ida - Golden Hours

 

[Triode User]

I believe that the most important thing is ground impedance. The earth wire on an audiophile power cord should be at least 4 mm² even if the live and neutral are only 2.5 mm². Some of the best sounding power cords in my opinion are configured like this. If the earth impedance of the power cord is low enough, additional earthing should make no difference.

Ok, so if you have perhaps a 2m length of 4mm2 earth lead then it gets plugged into the wall socket and you have maybe 40m of 2.5mm2 earth back to the consumer box. Or do you have a dedicated ring main for your HiFi with something like 6mm2 which might be the equivalent of what is needed? And have you tested the impedance of your mains earth anyway?

 

[Triode User]

Is there much of a difference in age between these two DAVEs?

Now playing: Ida - Golden Hours

Maybe 6 months. Why do you ask?

 

[Jawed]

Maybe 6 months. Why do you ask?

Just collecting datapoints on variations in DAVEs. And wondering if there are differences due to on-going refinement in production. And whether it makes a sound quality difference.

There are at least three physical variants: curved glass, flat glass, flat glass with labelled connections on the rear. So changes are occurring in production.

It was only recently we've heard of possibly two DAVEs that had a manufacturing problem that produces audible distortion under very specific conditions, otherwise sounding "normal". Tracking variations and problems is something to do when we aren't talking about ferrites/cables/servers/spaghetti.

Could your measurement of such a stark difference in impedance be an indication of a problem? Could there be environmental reasons why the difference exists?

Now playing: Ida - The Weight

 

[Triode User]

It was only recently we've heard of possibly two DAVEs that had a manufacturing problem that produces audible distortion under very specific conditions, otherwise sounding "normal".

I thought that those reported two issues are not yet anywhere near proven as being a Dave issue and may yet end up being related to other kit?

Regarding my two measured DACs, the lower measured earth resistance was on a silver Dave that has an earlier serial number than the other (higher earth resistance) Dave which is a later black one. As to 'environmental reasons' I am not sure what you mean but they were sat side by side on the same table. I suppose one could try to find out why they are slightly different (slightly as in the great scheme of things) but its not very high up on my priority list though so don't hold any breaths.

 

[romaz]

No much time left, very sad to see you leave but feel personally that it is more healthy to just enjoy wonderful music through Robs master pieces than spend time comparing stuff.

I am sure that I am not the only one thinking about if we should wait for the pulse array power amps or go for a M-scalar. So do you have some feeling for the the loss from inserting the XA60.8s compared to the gain from adding the Blu MK2? I.e. would you chose Dave+Omega Alnicos or pick BluDave+xa60.8+Omega Alnicos?

Thanks for the kind sentiment. I enjoy hearing new things and when the opportunity to hear something new and novel presents itself, it will be hard to say no but typical of many BluDAVE owners, I have been enjoying my setup for some time now and feel it's time to just be grateful for have what I have. Of course, it will be difficult to not want to hear the new things that Rob comes up with and so my door will always be open to his offerings.

At this time, I feel fortunate to have two listening rooms with contrasting presentations. One is a point source setup with seductive textural qualities that is especially lustrous with intimate vocals and small ensemble while the other is a line source setup with a giant sound stage and wonderful dynamics that I have really grown to love for large orchestral and heavily amplified music. While resolution and transparency are the 2 qualities I have sought above any other, there is also the matter of tone. While I have moved away from tubes, DAVE directly driving my Omegas/Voxativs provides me the detail delicacy that I have always loved with small directly heated triodes. This delicacy is difficult to capture with powerful amps driving my Martin Logans, however, the Pass Labs amps provides enough of that midrange bloom and treble sweetness while also delivering the control and dynamics that solid state is known for.

Having been through much of Pass Labs' line, I found the XA30.8 and XA60.8s to have perhaps the most evocative tonal qualities of the line but they are a bit soft and lacking in dynamics for my Martin Logans. The XA100.8 and X350.8 have faster transients, are more incisive, have tremendous bass and better grunt and are considerably more transparent while still exhibiting Pass Lab's trademark tonal qualities. For my Martin Logans, thus far, I have found the X350.8 to be the best fit of all. Here is something that will surprise some. Pass Labs strongly suggests that their amps sound best when paired with one of their preamps. Typical marketing talk and as many of you know, I gave up on preamps long ago believing that DAVE directly driving any amp sounds more transparent than any preamp ever could and my direct A/B against a variety of preamps including a $30k VAC seemed to prove this to me. Even a very good Music First Audio Baby Reference V2 passive preamp paired with the Pass Labs did not sound as good to me as DAVE directly driving the Pass Labs. However, I agreed to listen to Pass Labs' new X-12 and then their X-22 and to my surprise, it has become difficult (if not impossible) to remove the X-22 from the chain. Their amps simply sound better with their preamps and not by a small margin and it's as if they designed their amps to sound incomplete without them.

Those who compare amps will claim that Pass Labs are colored and not as transparent as as some (i.e. Constellation, Boulder, Soulution, Burmester) but these other amps that I have recently auditioned don't have the soul that the Pass Labs has and even the Burmester 911 Mk3, which is the most transparent amp I have heard sounds severely veiled when compared to Rob's DAVE directly driving speakers. The true test will come when Rob's DX amps become available. No doubt that Blu2/DAVE/DX will speak to the left side of my brain better than the Pass Labs but will it speak to the right side of my brain in the same way and that is the question that haunts me at this time.