CES 2017: MQA announces TIDAL Masters, and more
Feb 21, 2017 at 2:07 AM Post #482 of 702
You didn't get Tidal HiFi for free, you won't get Tidal MQA free either. They're not going to absorb the added licensing costs when they are already losing millions every year. Time will prove me right. Bookmark this post and come back to it in 6 months. I would be happy to eat my words.

 
If Tidal asks a few more bucks for Master quality, why is that becoming so much problem?
 
When compared HI-FI versions vs MQAs, if sound quality is noticable for someone, those people can pay few more bucks to Tidal Masters. If not they will not pay. No one forcing you to pay Masters more, if you don't like you will not pay.
 
Sorry but, if music lovers will not support high quality services so they will have only Spotify quality in the hands. I like Tidal's effort, they care about sound quality. Are they successful or not? This is another issue. MQA is necessary or not? This is another issue, the point is that at least Tidal is trying something to increase sound quality in streaming technology limits. Such efforts should be supported. 
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 2:22 AM Post #483 of 702
Mm...Tidal masters is the only game in town. It is the only streaming service that exists today to serve the need/want for 24-bìt music streaming. On that score alone, MQA/Tidal Masters is worth supporting. For critics, can you offer or cite a better alternative??? Open source/non-DRM sounds fine.....on paper but absent any practical and viable service, it is a non-starter.
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 5:01 AM Post #484 of 702
Indeed ! And it is exciting to think that more streaming services will eventually follow. While I partially understand critics from a pure "maths" point of view (MQA is not true 24 bits, it is lossy), I do believe this new clever format has the ability to significantly raise the bar of music production and delivery for us to enjoy it !
 
I would like to share again this graph from the interview of Bob Stuart with Chris Connaker on CA:
 

 
What I see with this new MQA format is the convergence of a high quality format together with true convenience for end consumers. This was not the case at all with DSD/SACD despite the promises of sonic improvements.
 
From my limited experience with digital filters settings through Audrivana over the last 4 years, I have come to believe strongly in the impact of this "de-blurring" effect in digital audio reproduction. It has made a noticeable difference in my system (be it with the Audio-gd Ref 7.1 or the NFB-28) which only treated the DAC part of it. Music flows better, more natural and relaxed. Now it is so exciting to see that "de-blurring" can also be applied to the recording itself before playback. I would assume Meridian uses some kind of "apodising" filters for this. I now really look forward to the release of the Audrivana 3.0 software and Dragonfly firmware updates to have the opportunity to listen a fully unfolded "origami" MQA album. I have also started a Tidal account to enjoy those MQA albums available today. I bet much more will follow. I am no visionary, but this time, we might as well be witnessing the birth of a true revolution in the digital audio industry. A deep thank you to all those who contributed to this !
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 6:57 AM Post #485 of 702
On a side note, I would imagine that through MQA enabled softwares like Audirvana, you can still decode the MQA file and do the first unfold to 88khz/96khz, while you can also apply further software upsampling to this signal up to 384khz with an appropriate digital filter setting (Audirvana let you play with this). While maybe not 100% of the full MQA sound as intended by Meridian, you could get pretty close without the need for a MQA approved DAC. This widens considerably the possibility to experience the best of digital audio.
At least, that is what I plan to do, because I have no intention to purchase a new DAC for this !
 
 

 
Feb 21, 2017 at 11:27 AM Post #486 of 702
Raypin and L8MDL. I agree That we need to support the movement for better quality audio. I was a Subscriber to Tidal Before Jay-z bought it and plastered it with friends and family and meaningless videos. I continue to fork over cash because I find the quality of streaming close to CD or flac and you are right there is no one else in the game at least in the US that offers anything close. The MQA Licensing Model is end to end so I woudl not say it will be out of the question that price increases are possible. We will see.
 
The two main Selling points of MQA are the compression or origami and the deblurring, my thoughts.
 
The Bandwidth Issue with the exception of streaming on phones is becoming a non issue for the most part so the Origami function is neat but may be mitigated in the near future as we streaming 4k Movies are a reality, a 24/192 file with be cake in the near future. I think it has merit in its function on its own however it has been pointed out that MQA is actually lossy compared to a 24/192 file so it is not actually what the mastering engineers Final Copy would have been. If they would not market it as such, I think the concept initself is not a terrible one.
 
On the Deblurring algorithm. Some Reading on Delta Sigma DAC Chips and Sigma Delta ADC's  show they are probably the Source of the "Blurring" as Companies went to the Cheap easier to manufacture chips that in fact do not keep their instead of the more expensive Multi Bit chips that are known to be better for audio production and Playback. Maybe the Folks at Meridian, if they were so concerned about the quality of recordings should start building better ADC's for Studios to use so that analog to digital conversion is a better quality to begin with.
 
 
This explains it in good detail the differences between both. I do not understand everything here admittedly, but outside of the trying to decode the measurements their findings and conclusions are not hard to decipher
 
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Lib/SACD.pdf
 
"ABSTRACT
Single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta converters are in principle imperfectible. We prove this fact. The reason, simply
stated, is that, when properly dithered, they are in constant overload. Prevention of overload allows only partial
dithering to be performed. The consequence is that distortion, limit cycles, instability, and noise modulation can
never be totally avoided. We demonstrate these effects, and using coherent averaging techniques, are able to display
the consequent profusion of nonlinear artefacts which are usually hidden in the noise floor. Recording, editing,
storage, or conversion systems using single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta modulators, are thus inimical to audio of the
highest quality. In contrast, multi-bit sigma-delta converters, which output linear PCM code, are in principle
infinitely perfectible. (Here, multi-bit refers to at least two bits in the converter.) They can be properly dithered so
as to guarantee the absence of all distortion, limit cycles, and noise modulation. The audio industry is misguided if
it adopts 1-bit sigma-delta conversion as the basis for any high-quality processing, archiving, or distribution format
to replace multi-bit, linear PCM"
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 12:12 PM Post #487 of 702
Mm...well 5G is the next wave and some Telcos are working on LTE that is faster than today's home fiber. When widespread adoption takes place, origami will be a thing of the past and we can all enjoy high def music without any of the existing limitations. So yes. I agree.
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 12:53 PM Post #488 of 702
Mm...well 5G is the next wave and some Telcos are working on LTE that is faster than today's home fiber. When widespread adoption takes place, origami will be a thing of the past and we can all enjoy high def music without any of the existing limitations. So yes. I agree.


The origami is just a means to efficiently distribute within current transport, bandwidth, constraints and will, indeed, disappear.  However, the correction of the artifacts, mainly timing related, introduced as part of the recording/playback process should remain.  Hopefully, a process to never introduce them in the first place would be ideal.
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 3:45 PM Post #489 of 702
I think the full audio chain MQA control has already been scrapped and will at best become some niche stuff in a few years. why would the studios go through the trouble of changing their gears, restricting what they can do in mixing and mastering, just for a compression format because some dudes at Meridian said they subjectively preferred the band limiting filters they made? it makes very little sense IMO.
 
plus think about all that already exists, there is no recording all that again just to fool around with a special sauce in the ADC which, as far as I know, isn't even proved to lead to better fidelity. I don't want to make crazy claims, but could it be possible that the entire recording industry didn't wait on Meridian to try a few options to band limit a recorded track?
wink_face.gif

 
 
anyway, it's much more realistic to treat MQA as a compression format instead of some dubious theory that "it sounds better, it has sample electrolytes, it's what the plants crave!". or whatever marketing time smearing unproved concept they have(unproved that it's audible in music at those levels).  those who believe they need more samples and less bits for "better" subjective audio, can use MQA files and save some space compared to the same signal resolution(and not file resolution) of a wav equivalent. compared to flac, it will depend on the compression settings used for the flac. is it better to have higher compression flac or average flac setting+MQA decoding? from a file size perspective? from a CPU perspective? IDK. 
can I upsample my file and still have it decoded at the MQA compatible DAC? IDK
can I EQ and have the file decoded at the MQA compatible DAC? 100% no. the decoding would have to be done by the player before applying EQ or we'd end up with a file that doesn't even resolve it's container resolution(kind of sad for a compression format).  that's clearly why they started marketing this as a full pack wonders in the DAC, but very fast moved on to offering software decoding alternative. even without those problems, Tidal wasn't going to wait for consumers to buy a meridian DAC. it wouldn't have made any sense. so software decoding I believe will be the main existence for MQA.
 
then we have MQA masters, which in the end will really be just masters, like any other masters they don't need DSD MQA highres or itune. stuff are remastered all the time(often for copyright reason and not for music but let's forget that depressing detail). associating new masters with a format is just a "feel good" trick for the format to look good by association. the only obvious result is that it makes it harder to get such masters in other formats if that's how we wished to have them.
 
the last element of MQA is Meridian pushing for their apodizing filter. a few DAC manufacturers have already expressed how happy they are about having a satellite of Meridian demanding access to design information(go ask Shiit or Benchmark for some good old "I tell it like it is" talk).  but that doesn't really matter, because of course if the consumer starts believing he wants something(even for the wrong reasons), then manufacturers will start selling it. it's an economical logic, so who knows? those stuff might come if they're hyped enough for no reason.
but to be perfectly clear, many DAC designers disagree with MQA/Meridian claims about an apodizing filter being the better choice. and those who are also into the time smearing paranoia(which always comes with a cost for the frequency domain, you don't play god reshaping time without impact on the other axis of a sine signal), all have all their own designs and filters to make pretty impulse responses too. here too, the industry didn't wait for Meridian to do whatever they felt they needed to do. any evidence that a MQA dac does better for fidelity than a mega combo burrito from shiit? than an anti time smearing thingy from Ayre? than the gazillion taps from Chord? etc.
it's easy for Meridian to talk the talk, they even sponsored their own paper to agree with themselves on the audibility of low pass filters. but it's still just one brand making marketing claims that they know better. which is what everybody does.
 
 
oh no sorry I forgot. the true last element of MQA is how they control the file and generate their own certificates. DRMs never die, just like Jason in Friday the 13Th.
ph34r.gif
oh but it's not a DRM, it's an "authenticity certificate". you know like widows10 "we're not spying on you, we're collecting data".
rolleyes.gif

 
what's not to like. and then there is the marketing. the half correct videos, the heavy insinuations about better subjective sound from variables at magnitudes that were never proved to be audible. the play with real values used out of context to try and make a point, like the  5 to 8µs delay that humans can detects, brought up as if those values were realistic with musical content. then the misguiding ideas to make people think that the delay between 2 samples is an expression of the resolution and the same sort of delay mentioned above(which it 100% isn't!!). 
and then of course from time to time you can see stupid crap like that :


labeled as :
Notional sound quality vs sample rates

"Notional", it could just the same read "I know a guy and he had an opinion on things".  I almost grow a third hand just so that I can facepalm in proportion to the pseudo science.
 
but hey it's nothing new. Pono came up with the little birds and fishes on a resolution graph, and a video where they mistook file compression with dynamic compression... I should be used to that marketing crap by now.
and just like it was with Pono, I expect mostly people who don't understand digital audio to become convinced that MQA is the best thing since sliced bread. subjectivists convinced by unproved objective arguments and sighted tests. that too is an old recipe.
 
edit: angrish correction
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 7:04 PM Post #490 of 702
  I think the full audio chain MQA control has already been scrapped and will at best become some niche stuff in a few years. why would all the studios go through the trouble of changing their gears, restricting what they can do in mixing and mastering, just for a compression format because some dudes at Meridian said they subjectively preferred the band limiting filters they made? it makes very little sense IMO.
 
plus think about all that already exists, there is no recording all that again just to fool around with an special sauce in the ADC that, as far as I know, isn't even proved to lead to better fidelity. I don't want to make crazy claims, but could it be possible that the entire recording industry didn't wait on Meridian to try a few options for band limiting a recorded track?
wink_face.gif

 
 
anyway, it's much more realistic to treat MQA as a compression format instead of some dubious theory that "it sounds better, it has sample electrolytes, it's what the plants crave!". or whatever marketing time smearing unproved concept they have(unproved that it's audible in music at those levels).  those who believe they need more samples and less bits for "better" subjective audio, can use MQA files and save some space compared to the same signal resolution(and not file resolution) of a wav equivalent. compared to flac, it will depend on the compression settings used for the flac. is it better to have higher compression flac or average flac setting+MQA decoding? from a file size perspective? from a CPU perspective? IDK. 
can I upsample my file and still have it decoded at the MQA compatible DAC? IDK
can I EQ and have the file decoded at the MQA compatible DAC? 100% no. the decoding would have to be done by the player before applying EQ or we'd end up with a file that doesn't even resolve it's container resolution(kind of sad for a compression format).  that's clearly why they started marketing this as a full pack thing and wonders in the DAC, but they very fast moved on to offering software decoding alternative. even without those problems, Tidal wasn't going to wait for consumers to all buy a meridian DAC. it wouldn't have made any sense. so software decoding I believe will be the main existence for MQA.
 
then we have MQA masters, which in the end will really be just masters, like any other masters they don't need DSD MQA highres or itune. stuff are remastered all the time(often for copyright reason and not for music but let's forget that depressing detail). associating new masters with a format is just a "feel good" trick for the format to look good by association. the only obvious result is that it makes it harder to get such masters in other formats if that's how we wished to have them.
 
the last element of MQA is Meridian pushing for their apodizing filter. a few DAC manufacturers have already expressed how happy they are about having a satellite of Meridian demanding access to design information(go ask Shiit or Benchmark for some good old "I tell it like it is" talk).  but that doesn't really matter, because of course if the consumer starts believing he wants something(even for the wrong reasons), then manufacturers will start selling it. it's an economical logic, so who knows? those stuff might come if they're hyped enough for no reason.
but to be perfectly clear, many DAC designers disagree with MQA/Meridian claims about an apodizing filter being the better choice. and those who are also into the time smearing paranoia(which always comes with a cost for the frequency domain, you don't play god reshaping time without impact on the other axis of a sine signal), all have all their own designs and filters to make pretty impulse responses too. here too, the industry didn't wait for Meridian to do whatever they felt they needed to do. any evidence that a MQA dac does better for fidelity than a mega combo burrito from shiit? than an anti time smearing thingy from Ayre? than the gazillion taps from Chord? etc.
it's easy for Meridian to talk the talk, they even sponsored their own paper to agree with themselves on the audibility of low pass filters. but it's still just one brand making marketing claims that they know better. which is what everybody does.
 
 
oh no sorry I forgot. the true last element of MQA is how they control the file and generate their own certificates. DRMs never die, just like Jason in Friday the 13Th.
ph34r.gif
oh but it's not a DRM, it's an "authenticity certificate". you know like widows10 "we're not spying on you, we're collecting data".
rolleyes.gif

 
what's not to like. and then there is the marketing. the half correct videos, the heavy insinuations about better subjective sound from variables at magnitudes that were never proved to be audible. the play with real values used out of context to try and make a point, like the  to 8µs delay that humans can detects, brought up as if those values were realistic with musical content. then the misguiding ideas to make people think that the delay between 2 samples is an expression of the resolution and the same sort of delay mentioned above(which it 100% isn't!!). 
and then of course from time to time you can see stupid crap like that :


labeled as :
"Notional", it could just the same read "I know a guy and he had an opinion on things".  I almost grow a third hand just so that I can facepalm in proportion to the pseudo science.
 
but hey it's nothing new. Pono came up with the little birds and fishes on a resolution graph, and a video where they mistook file compression with dynamic compression... I should be used to that marketing crap by now.
and just like it was with Pono, I expect mostly people who don't understand digital audio to become convinced that MQA is the best thing since sliced bread. subjectivists convinced by unproved objective arguments and sighted tests. that too is an old recipe.


I'll be the first to admit that I know little, scientifically, about digital audio but how about you try not insulting those of us who don't have your level of knowledge and respectfully educate us with the scientific proof that it's all marketing BS.  I'll gladly listen and learn!
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 8:36 PM Post #492 of 702
 
I'll be the first to admit that I know little, scientifically, about digital audio but how about you try not insulting those of us who don't have your level of knowledge and respectfully educate us with the scientific proof that it's all marketing BS.  I'll gladly listen and learn!


He was doing fine until the end when he posted this:
 
 and just like it was with Pono, I expect mostly people who don't understand digital audio to become convinced that MQA is the best thing since sliced bread. subjectivists convinced by unproved objective arguments and sighted tests. that too is an old recipe.

 
The point he is making is there are a lot of technical details that when you dissect them you will find that there isn't a lot that's unique or revolutionary in the technology MQA is marketing.  Additionally, he is also suggesting that MQA's approach of "authenticating" is potentially another DRM-like scheme something the studios would appreciate.  The insinuation is that this is the way they got adopted by their content partners.  Finally, he suggests that coupling the rollout of the MQA encoding/format with the release of better masters is a way of masking the real benefits of MQA because you are more likely to perceive the benefits of the new masters instead of the technology and associate all the benefits to MQA.  Given the marketing hype, the slight-of-hand in the release, and the potential for conspiracy his point is you shouldn't trust MQA.
 
I think he made valid points.  It's unfortunate when smart people put down others like he did.  Try looking past it and think critically about what he is saying.
 
I for one like the fact that better masters are getting released and I can get them with less bandwidth than current high-resolution digital releases.  That is a good thing in my book and I'm willing to roll with it despite the reservations above for that reason.  I also give credit to Meridian for figuring out how to navigate a complex industry with powerful players and still deliver something of value to music lovers.
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 9:52 PM Post #493 of 702
I agree that he has very valid points. What I disagree with is, as you pointed out, how it was presented.

I would love to see actual testing results especially related to the supposed de blurring. Is there a way to definitively prove we can't detect the miniscule timing differences identified or what effect the pre and post ringing have on the signal from digital reproduction as compared to the absence of them during a live presentation.

I like to keep an open mind until proven otherwise.
 
Feb 21, 2017 at 10:03 PM Post #494 of 702
Regardless of all the hand wringing, accusations and other ideas going on in the thread, the fact of the matter is that if you use streaming services, Tidal's masters are some of the best sound quality you can get from streamed audio atm without having to **** around with players, files and all that other crap from the dinosaur age. 
 
Feb 22, 2017 at 12:50 AM Post #495 of 702
just to say sorry for torturing English so much in my last post(and probably this one too ^_^). I don't know if it's this week or if I just start to realize how bad I am, but something is off.
 
Quote:
  I'll be the first to admit that I know little, scientifically, about digital audio but how about you try not insulting those of us who don't have your level of knowledge and respectfully educate us with the scientific proof that it's all marketing BS.  I'll gladly listen and learn!

I don't think I'm insulting anybody. nobody is an expert on everything. I've been using computers since I'm 12, I'm 40 now but all I know is as a user, I can't make one, I can't code anything, I don't follow the PC master race and don't know what is TOTL or not. and TBH I'm not really interested in learning or I would have done so by now. I'm your average computer user who's ignorant about computers. it's a fact. and of course being ignorant about those stuff makes me way more gullible to unrealistic marketing. a guy with more knowledge would pick up on some half empty claims, or contradicting points about computer specs. I wouldn't.
now try to sell me fake pringles and you'd see the all extent of my expertise. for some it's nerdy audio tech, for some it's cat figurines, we're going to be ignorant about something.
 
 for some products, the target will logically be people who don't know too much about the technology. take pono with a campaign showing a DAP used as a line out in a car vs low bit rate mp3, while making statements about providing the real sound like artist intended, there was from the start a certain need to be ignorant about a good deal, not to start laughing. often Neil Young became overwhelmed by his own topics on TV.  people, IMO, clearly were attracted by a philosophy of pono, not by component details and objective demonstrations. how could they, for all the campaign there was close to no actual information about the device or its objective fidelity. reason why I didn't back it, I spent 2 years waiting for output specs that never came. it was all about the idea of good sound instead of actual good sound.
I feel that MQA is attracting the same people. some general idea of good sound like the artist intended, some confusing impulse response that looks like a clear and serious argument to people who don't know much about impulse responses, and off we go. but objectively, it's basically a file with more samples. like any other file with more samples. and the DAC is a DAC, it just reads one more format and may or may not apply a particular filter. not much to make a tech obsessed audiophile wet his pants. those who will come to MQA are, IMO, more likely to be those who once again are attracted by a philosophy of good sound, but don't necessarily get much else of the process. and I expect a good deal of people to be convinced of the format's "superiority" just because they enjoy some masters and mistake the master for the format. something a more objective, more techy person would wish to control with certainty before making any claim about how good the format is.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top