[Andykong]

Hi @Andykong,

Ibasso managed to put Android 11 on the same SOC and same RAM than N8II (snapdragon 660 / 6go RAM) on their DX320.

What are the technical constraints, if any, on doing the same thing on the Cayin N8II ?
Maybe this is a choice, and you could explain us the reason of this choice ?

Thanks,

If we were to develop a new DAP with Snapdragon 660 now, then we definitely would go for Android 11.
We finalized the N8ii solution in late 2019, and developed a working sample with AK4499EQ by Q3 2020 (that's why we ordered a bulk order of AK4499EQ that was used in N30LE). The AKM fire (October 2020) forced us to change the N8ii to RoHM DAC and delayed the launch till mid-2021. So we are talking about a decision we made all the way back in 2019.

I can't speak for other brands, but we did the following during the R&D process of our DAP products:

1. Select system platform (MCU + Android kernel, playback engine)
2. Select a digital audio platform (DAC, and IV if needed)
3. Formulate FPGA (the bridge between MCU and DAC, and the DTA that bypasses the Android SRC)
4. Design and optimize the analog sound system (Dual Timbre, Headphone Amp, and Line drivers for LO/Pre Out in N8ii)

For the detailed relationship of these functions, please refer to the Functional Diagram of N8ii in the opening post.

Can we upgrade N8ii to a newer Android platform? Yes, technically we can do that and the process is actually fairly straightforward when Snapdragon can provide the upgrade patches. However, we'll have to live without a properly tuned FPGA, losing the DTA, and affecting the performance of the DAC. The analog circuit is based on the IV output (which is equivalent to the output stage of the DAC), so if the IV output is altered, the analog circuit is not fully optimized after the Android upgrade.

If we happened to have more Snapdragon 660-based DAP projects in 2021-2022, we probably will have a 660-based DTA solution for Android 10 or Android 11, unfortunately, we don't have that, we switched to Snapdragon 665 (and an updated HiBy playback engine), the newer the FPGA solution is not applicable to N8ii.

 

[yasick]

Hi @Andykong,

Ibasso managed to put Android 11 on the same SOC and same RAM than N8II (snapdragon 660 / 6go RAM) on their DX320.

What are the technical constraints, if any, on doing the same thing on the Cayin N8II ?
Maybe this is a choice, and you could explain us the reason of this choice ?

Thanks,

I have ibasso 300 and n82. n82 works much faster, the response is fast, but 300 works slowly, as if something is slowing it down. I don’t know what Android 11 will give to the player other than numbers, but the Kaine music application is outdated. I started using UAPP, I recommend it.

 

[Andykong]

If we were to develop a new DAP with Snapdragon 660 now, then we definitely would go for Android 11.
We finalized the N8ii solution in late 2019, and developed a working sample with AK4499EQ by Q3 2020 (that's why we ordered a bulk order of AK4499EQ that was used in N30LE). The AKM fire (October 2020) forced us to change the N8ii to RoHM DAC and delayed the launch till mid-2021. So we are talking about a decision we made all the way back in 2019.

I can't speak for other brands, but we did the following during the R&D process of our DAP products:

1. Select system platform (MCU + Android kernel, playback engine)
2. Select a digital audio platform (DAC, and IV if needed)
3. Formulate FPGA (the bridge between MCU and DAC, and the DTA that bypasses the Android SRC)
4. Design and optimize the analog sound system (Dual Timbre, Headphone Amp, and Line drivers for LO/Pre Out in N8ii)

For the detailed relationship of these functions, please refer to the Functional Diagram of N8ii in the opening post.

Can we upgrade N8ii to a newer Android platform? Yes, technically we can do that and the process is actually fairly straightforward when Snapdragon can provide the upgrade patches. However, we'll have to live without a properly tuned FPGA, losing the DTA, and affecting the performance of the DAC. The analog circuit is based on the IV output (which is equivalent to the output stage of the DAC), so if the IV output is altered, the analog circuit is not fully optimized after the Android upgrade.

If we happened to have more Snapdragon 660-based DAP projects in 2021-2022, we probably will have a 660-based DTA solution for Android 10 or Android 11, unfortunately, we don't have that, we switched to Snapdragon 665 (and an updated HiBy playback engine), the newer the FPGA solution is not applicable to N8ii.

PS. Because the device is not properly optimized, the player will slow down after upgrading to a newer Android OS, the deterioration will be very noticeable when the instruction involves FPGA functions. So please do not expect upgrading from Android 9 to Android 11 will improve the UI and operation response, it's the other way around in our tests.

 

[magicguy]

@Andykong : thx for your answer.
I do not expected a faster UI by upgrading Android, I just wanted to be sure streaming will not be an issue in near future.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong : thx for your answer.
I do not expected a faster UI by upgrading Android, I just wanted to be sure streaming will not be an issue in near future.

I am not very knowledgable in streaming service, I use a more local streaming service KKBox because they are specialised in Chinese music content.

I was under the assumption that Android 6 is the minimum system requirement of most streaming services, maybe I am outdated on this issue. Can someone please enlighten me on which popular streaming service requires newer than Android 6 as their minimum requirement?

 

[yasick]

@Andykong : thx for your answer.
I do not expected a faster UI by upgrading Android, I just wanted to be sure streaming will not be an issue in near future.

Don't worry. In order for music services not to support Android 9, but only starting from Android 10, then Android 9 must be very old, and for this to happen 10 years must pass. After which, you can simply use the old version of the application for Android 9. In this case, by this time you will have already changed a dozen players. Listen to music quietly and have fun

 

[yasick]

I am not very knowledgable in streaming service, I use a more local streaming service KKBox because they are specialised in Chinese music content.

I was under the assumption that Android 6 is the minimum system requirement of most streaming services, maybe I am outdated on this issue. Can someone please enlighten me on which popular streaming service requires newer than Android 6 as their minimum requirement?

Often audiophiles listen to qobuz, and very demanding people listen to some kind of Roon.

 

[Andykong]

Often audiophiles listen to qobuz, and very demanding people listen to some kind of Roon.

Qobuz is not available in China, so we didn't follow up closely, So what is the current system requirement os Qobuz? and what is the last time they tightened up their requirements?

 

[yasick]

Qobuz is not available in China, so we didn't follow up closely, So what is the current system requirement os Qobuz? and what is the last time they tightened up their requirements?

In my country it is also not available, but you can easily install the APK file and buy an account with a premium subscription. For the latest version of qobuz, the minimum requirements are: 6 android.

 

[Andykong]

In my country it is also not available, but you can easily install the APK file and buy an account with a premium subscription. For the latest version of qobuz, the minimum requirements are: 6 android.

Android 6, that's what I have in mind. So we probably won't need to worry about Oobuz for a while.

 

[FPFi]

PS. Because the device is not properly optimized, the player will slow down after upgrading to a newer Android OS, the deterioration will be very noticeable when the instruction involves FPGA functions. So please do not expect upgrading from Android 9 to Android 11 will improve the UI and operation response, it's the other way around in our tests.

Thank you for the detailed and insightful explanation regarding android 9 usage with the N8ii. The desire to upgrade is strong in this hobby. However, your explanation and timeline helps me to understand Cayin’s perspective. Outstanding customer support, addressing a seemingly controversial question with a direct and truthful answer.

I really enjoy my N8ii and I no longer concern myself the android 9 issue.

 

[zlayde]

Same. I don’t need fancy animations. The snappier the experience the better!

 

[Soundvibrations]

Good morning everyone, sorry if I'm boring with these questions.
I'm undecided between an n7 + C9 or an n8ii, I listen to everything almost always with the iem, I have a ru07 dongle and I really like the sound but I find for my tastes that the highs don't extend as I would like and the mid-highs are not so transparent. .
Can n7 + c9 reach the same levels as n8ii? In reality, from the various forums I've seen, it's not very clear to me, often contradictory opinions... thanks in advance to anyone who wants to clear up some doubts for me!

 

[yasick]

Good morning everyone, sorry if I'm boring with these questions.
I'm undecided between an n7 + C9 or an n8ii, I listen to everything almost always with the iem, I have a ru07 dongle and I really like the sound but I find for my tastes that the highs don't extend as I would like and the mid-highs are not so transparent. .
Can n7 + c9 reach the same levels as n8ii? In reality, from the various forums I've seen, it's not very clear to me, often contradictory opinions... thanks in advance to anyone who wants to clear up some doubts for me!

you need to listen to everything yourself.
If you're not in a hurry, you can wait until Kayne releases a new player, a replacement for the N82 in a simpler case than the N30le. or if you have money for n30le, you need to take it now and not wait.

 

[Soundvibrations]

devi ascoltare tutto da solo.
Se non hai fretta, puoi aspettare finché Kayne rilascerà un nuovo lettore, un sostituto dell'N82 in un case più semplice dell'N30le. o se hai soldi per n30le, devi prenderli adesso e non aspettare.

Thanks, this is true, perhaps I phrased the question badly, I was interested in knowing what differences people who have had experience with both perceived