[fuhransahis]

1. I'm not assuming that.
I believe the idea is to use the best output available. That depends on implementation, but your product has a balanced output, so presumably you think that is a good idea.
Otherwise, you could just have a SE output and simplify the design. If balanced isn't the best output, then why add it on to your product?
I was just noting that if people want to use balanced headphones they can't utilize the Nutubes.

You are assuming that balanced will be universally better than the tubes or vice versa. That's ignoring the synergy and use case each output may have for each person and their respective gear, not to mention the possibility of having multiple sound signatures from the same DAP using different configurations.

But I do agree that it should be clarified and made more apparent that the tubes only work in SE.

 

[Mike-WI]

You are assuming that balanced will be universally better than the tubes or vice versa. That's ignoring the synergy and use case each output may have for each person and their respective gear, not to mention the possibility of having multiple sound signatures from the same DAP using different configurations.

But I do agree that it should be clarified and made more apparent that the tubes only work in SE.

If their implementation of balanced output is not better than their implementation of SE output -- then why include it?
It adds cost and components.
Presumably (other than just thinking a balanced output is for marketing) the balanced was thought in the design of this flagship product to be better.
I'm not assuming, I'm just being logical.

Your point about different use cases for various gear is right on. I get that and agree.
I'm sure reviewers will give further objective and subjective information on the various outputs in the future to help move beyond speculation.

Mike

 

[fuhransahis]

If their implementation of balanced output is not better than their implementation of SE output -- then why include it?
It adds cost and components.
Presumably (other than just thinking a balanced output is for marketing) the balanced was thought in the design of this flagship product to be better.
I'm not assuming, I'm just being logical.

Your point about different use cases for various gear is right on. I get that and agree.
I'm sure reviewers will give further objective and subjective information on the various outputs in the future to help move beyond speculation.

Mike

I'm not sure where you got the info that the balanced output on thr N8 is better, especially with how much of a differentiating factor the use of the Nutubes is in their SE output. The only listening impressions I've seen are from Mimouille and he didnt try the SE output. Perhaps the tubes may even sound better to most people but balanced provides more power for harder to drive cans or IEMs. Or perhaps again they are equally powerful but with one output sounding warmer than the other. Which again would make it an alternative, not better, output. But we know none of this for certain, which therefore makes your presumed logic illogical

 

[Mike-WI]

I'm not sure where you got the info that the balanced output on thr N8 is better, especially with how much of a differentiating factor the use of the Nutubes is in their SE output. The only listening impressions I've seen are from Mimouille and he didnt try the SE output. Perhaps the tubes may even sound better to most people but balanced provides more power for harder to drive cans or IEMs. Or perhaps again they are equally powerful but with one output sounding warmer than the other. Which again would make it an alternative, not better, output. But we know none of this for certain, which therefore makes your presumed logic illogical

Ok

 

[Andykong]

Since @Rozeqloud has raised several questions regarding the connectivity of N8, I'll try to explain this in more detail.

Let’s recap the brief introduction form Cayin N8 Press Release:

Cayin N8 offers six input and output options so that you can integrate the DAP into your home audio system flexibly. The I2S Digital output (via micro HDMI) is by far the most sophisticated digital interface from N8, it can connect to I2S input of our CS-100DAC and N8 will become a high performance digital transport. We have also embedded the S/PDIF Coaxial signal into the Type-C secondary bus pins. This is our proprietary design and N8 users will be provided the necessary adapters to connect the player to portable and desktop DAC. N8 also supports USB Audio, it can function as USB DAC (input) or USB Transport (output) through its Type-C USB interface. Last but not least, N8 comes with dual line out design. On top of the commonly used single-ended line out through the dedicated 3.5mm port, Cayin has added a ground connection to the "Pentaconn" connector so that N8 can facilitate full balanced line out through the shared 4.4mm TRRRS port.

For the sake of convenient, let’s list all the options as follows:

1. Single-ended Headphone Output (3.5mm TRS)
2. Balanced Headphone Output (4.4mm TRRRS)
3. Single-end Line Output (3.5mm TRS)
4. Balanced Line Output (4.4mm TRRRS)
5. I2S Digital Output (mini HDMI)
6. S/PDIF Coaxial Digital Output (Type C, embedded)
7. USB Digital Transport or USB Audio Output (Type C)
8. USB DAC or USB Audio Input (Type C)

(2) and (4) shared the same 4.4mm connectors, (6), (7) and (8) shared the same Type-C connectors. (6), (7) and (8) are digital connections exist in current Cayin DAPs, please refer to my previous explanation for more detail:

On top of a Type C to Type A standard USB cable, N8 also comes with the following cable accessories:



For the sake of simplicity, I'll address these as TypeC/RCA, TypeC/3.5, 4.4/XLR and 2.5/4.4 respectively.

Headphone Connections:

(1) 3.5mm Singled-end headphone phone output is the most common form of headphone connection for portable audio devices. Most IEMs and portable headphones will come with a 3.5mm cable. In case you want to connect full size headphones with 6.35mm connector to N8, you’ll need a 6.35 female to 3.5mm male adapter which is commonly available in audio shops.


(2) Balanced headphone is probably the most complicated and non-standardized connection in current audio market. For portable applications we have 2.5mm TRRS, 3.5mm TRRS, 2x3.5mm TRS and 4.4mm TRRRS. Cayin has adopted 2.5mm TRRS connectors for balanced headphone previously. We switched to 4.4mm TRRRS with N8 in view of the technically advantages of the new connector but we have provided an custom designed 2.5/4.4 L adapters so that the 2.5mm balanced IEM/headphones can use the N8 balanced headphone output conveniently. However if you were to use balanced headphones with the less popular 3.5mm TRRS or 2x3.5mm TRS connectors, you need to get an adapter to convert these into either 2.5mm or 4.4mm connectors.



Balanced headphone for desktop system might involve XLR4 or dual XLR3. The easiest way to use these headphones with N8 is to custom make a XLR4(F) to 4.4mm or dual XLR3(F) to 4.4mm or 2.5mm adapter, the later will require adding our 4.4/2.5 adapter before you can use it in N8.


If you have a balanced headphone (terminated in 2.5mm or 4.4mm), you can convert it into single end with appropriate converter 2.5mm to 3.5mm or 4.4mm to 3.5mm adapter. In this arrangement, you will duplicate the ground of 3.5mm output from the DAP to left and right ground of balanced connection. However if you are using a single-ended headphone (terminated in 3.5mm), you cannot use a 3.5mm to 4.4mm adapter to plug that into the balanced output of the N8, In tis case you’ll merge the L- and R- into one stream feeding the 3.5mm ground. Duplicate is not a problem, it won't sound better, but it won't crash either. Merging is dangerous, it can cause damage to your headphone, and in some cases, damage your DAP in due course.



Analogue Line Out

Line out is a fixed value output (i.e., not altered by volume control) allow you to connect your DAP to audio input of an amplifier, this can be your home audio system or a portable amplifier. In DAP there are two types of line out in general: one that bypassed the headphone amplifier circuit completely (e.g., Cayin N5ii) and one don’t (e.g., N3). By passing headphone amplifier will offer a cleaner signal and is preferred from technical point of view.

(3) 3.5mm singled-end is the most common form of a line out connection in DAP. N8 offered a dedicated 3.5mm line out port to minimize confusion with 3.5mm headphone output. On top of completely independent form the headphone circuit, the N8 is more than just a direct output from DAC chipset, its has it own signal processing circuit so that it will meet the 2.0V industrial standard, can handle high impedance loading and remain quiet and non-distorted during transmission. You can connect to a portable headphone amplifier with a short 3.5mm to 3.5mm interconnect, or connect to a desktop integrated amplifier or pre-amplifier through a 3.5mm to 2xRCA cable. All these are commonly available in the market.



(4) N8 iis our first DAP offers genuine balanced line out with rated output at 4.0V. We have taken full advantage of the 4.4mm pentaconn balanced connector to facilitate ground connection on top of the L+, L-, R+ and R- signal path. Since the De facto standard of balanced connection is dual XLR3, Cayin has provided a 4.4/XLR adapter to, when used with a pair of standard XLR interconnect, connect the N8 to a desktop headphone amplifier or speaker integrated amplifier and using the N8 as analogue source.



Digital Connections:

(5) N8 is our first DAP equipped with I2S output, this is by definitely the most preferred digital interface both in terms of digital capability and audio performance. If you are using a DAC with compatible I2S input, definitely give this a try. Since we used HDMI for the i2S connections in iDAP-6 and CS-100DAC, it is natural that we adopt mini HDMI connector for I2S implementation with N8. To connect N8 to external DAC such as CS-100DAC, you need a Mini-HDMI to HDMI cable or a HDMI to Mini-HDMI adapter and then connect to DAC with a standard HDMI cable. These cable or adapters are readily available in the market but we advise you to use a short HDMI cable (1m or below) whenever possible.



(6) This is a proprietary implementation for Cayin DAP. Cayin has developed two type-C S/PDIF coaxial cables in the past: CS-40TC35 and CS-30TCR. The TypeC/3.5 is functionally equivalent to our CS-30TCR and it will connect N8 to portable DAC/amp with 3.5mm TS mono coaxial input, typical examples are such as Mojo and Hugo2. On the other hand, the TypeC/RCA adapter, when used with a standard RCA S/PDIF coaxial cable, enables you to connect the N8 to a desktop DAC and using the N8 as digital source. Please be reminded that off-the-shelf Type-C cable will not compatible with this design and our Type-C coaxial cable will not compatible with standard Type-C devices such as Android mobile phones or tablets.

(7) There are two typical scenarios when N8 is used as USB Digital Transport. Typical desktop DAC use USB-B (make sure you don’t confuse with USB mini-B or USB micro-B) as input connector, so when you connect N8 to desktop DAC, you need a USB-C to USB-B cable. You can also connect N8 to portable DAC/amp but you need to pay attention to the USB input of the DAC/amp. For example, if you connect N8 to Chord Hugo2, you’ll need a USB-C to micro USB cable. You can buy standard off-the-shelf cable for this application conveniently.



(8) If you are going to us N8 as USB DAC for your computers, all you need is a standard USB-C to USB-A cable. In fact, the supplied USB-C in N8 package can be used for charging, data transfer and USB DAC already.

PS: I am not too sure I name the cables and adapters correctly, please feel free to correct me if I didn't get it right.

 

[Andykong]

Thank you for all that advice mate

I may have this sussed now

With what you know i have now(CIEMs with SE mini jack 3.5mm ) , and whats included in the N8 box ,am i ready to go with both SE(Tube section) ,and with the included adapter i can also go balanced ?

i dont think so , because you said "or use the included Cayin 2.5mm to 4.4mm adapter"

So there doesnt seem to be a 3,5mm to balanced adapter included ? My current CIEM mini is 3.5mm (I assume , same size as ipod output jack.i ve never measure these things ,and never paid attention to the actual dimensions )

The 4.4mm TRRRS balanced to dual xlrs included is sweet , as im curious how my HD800s will sound on N8 (I assume their XLR ends are female , that makes sense?)

I seen videos of AK SP1000 (I assume the competition for this N8?) at an audio show , and no one had IEMs , the table was all full sized cans . i assume the N8 will be at least as powerful as the AK SP1000 ? Im not expecting the same performance on my HD800s as i get from my Dark star ,but it would be nice to occasionally "Go mobile" (Pun) with my HD 800s

Since we dont know a price yet , much over 2500.00 i wont be able to get the additional cables for a while ,thats why im asking so many cable and adapter questions in advance

Your continued advice is appreciated

I assume you have read my new post that explains the connectivity of N8 in detail.

For your HD800, you have a dual XLR balanced cable already, to use this with N8, you can have the following option:
(1) Dual XLR to 4.4 TRRRS adapter + Dual XLR to 3.5mm adapter
(2) Dual XLR to 4.4 TRRRS adapter + 4.4 TRRRS female to 3.5mm Male adapter, or
(3) Dual XLR to 2.5mm TRRS adapter + 2.5mm female to 3.5mm Adapter,

(1) probably will be more expensive, but you only use ONE adapter at any time. (3) is probably cheaper overall, but you'll always use TWO adapters any any time and the 2.5mm TRRS will become a bottleneck because of limited soldering surface and contact area of 2.5mm connectors.

For your CIEM, you are using a 2pin-CM to 3.5mm single-ended cable currently which is fine already, you can connect to N8 in singled-end, and tried out both tube and Solid state output already, so I suggest you keep this configuration as-is. Only after you tried your CM with N8 and still insisted to use the CM with N8 in balanced mode, then you'll need to order a 2pin-CM balanced cable. I don't think you need to bother with this right now.

You are correct, AK use their version of T5P at audio shows. This is a low impedance high sensitivity "portable" full size headphones, N8 can handle T5P or similar headphones without any problem. We use Focal Clear to demo N8 in Munich High End 2018 and we really like this combination. We probably will stick with this in the future. We have also used full size planar headphones such as Kennerton Thror and Audeze EL8C with N8 in the show, these are more demanding headphones when compare to T5P or Focal Clear.

 

[Andykong]

Apparently the Nutubes sound more like an extremely clean solid state amp (someone posted it here a while ago). Still a pity @Mimouille didn't get to try it.

Tube amplifier can be very transparent, dynamic, and extremely fast transient. It can compete with Solid State amplifier toe to toe, check out the following posts and you'll be surprised even 300B SETA can be very "solid-state".

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...t-canjam-nyc-2018.872093/page-9#post-14231840
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...-canjam-nyc-2018.872093/page-10#post-14258652

 

[Andykong]

I can't believe I went to this event especially to try this player and didn't try the Nutube. They saw me testing the player on balanced and didn't tell me

Well, they'll be reluctant unless they know for sure you can understand Putonghua/Mandarin.

 

[Andykong]

Re- reading myself, I wasn't very clear.
I was referring to the discussion of custom colors - case, knobs, etc.
It does appear their is a market for that -- even at a higher cost to the consumer and a higher margin to the company.
Presumably that is why companies are on forums, to get input from prior and potential future customers.

Mike

Well, to solicit input is only a small part of my involvement in the forum, you'll be surprised by the amount of time we spend on this forum and it is not sales driven. Even discontinued products will receive similar level of attention.

For the record, Cayin didn't offer any product customization service in the past, be it hardware or software, and we have no intention to do that with N8 at this moment.

 

[Rozeqloud]

I assume you have read my new post that explains the connectivity of N8 in detail.

For your HD800, you have a dual XLR balanced cable already, to use this with N8, you can have the following option:
(1) Dual XLR to 4.4 TRRRS adapter + Dual XLR to 3.5mm adapter
(2) Dual XLR to 4.4 TRRRS adapter + 4.4 TRRRS female to 3.5mm Male adapter, or
(3) Dual XLR to 2.5mm TRRS adapter + 2.5mm female to 3.5mm Adapter,

(1) probably will be more expensive, but you only use ONE adapter at any time. (3) is probably cheaper overall, but you'll always use TWO adapters any any time and the 2.5mm TRRS will become a bottleneck because of limited soldering surface and contact area of 2.5mm connectors.

For your CIEM, you are using a 2pin-CM to 3.5mm single-ended cable currently which is fine already, you can connect to N8 in singled-end, and tried out both tube and Solid state output already, so I suggest you keep this configuration as-is. Only after you tried your CM with N8 and still insisted to use the CM with N8 in balanced mode, then you'll need to order a 2pin-CM balanced cable. I don't think you need to bother with this right now.

You are correct, AK use their version of T5P at audio shows. This is a low impedance high sensitivity "portable" full size headphones, N8 can handle T5P or similar headphones without any problem. We use Focal Clear to demo N8 in Munich High End 2018 and we really like this combination. We probably will stick with this in the future. We have also used full size planar headphones such as Kennerton Thror and Audeze EL8C with N8 in the show, these are more demanding headphones when compare to T5P or Focal Clear.

WOW Andy mate

Very thorough as always

This is one thing that will keep me , and many others coming back to Cayin

Great gear is , well great , but Cayin also offers this sort of exceptional customer interaction

I feel , cringey , coming back to keep clarifying questions and answers , and am always met with polite and informed replies

That goes for all the other forum members here too

I have to go pick up me grand weans from school , i intend to re read this as its very informed

Cheers

 

[Mike-WI]

Well, to solicit input is only a small part of my involvement in the forum, you'll be surprised by the amount of time we spend on this forum and it is not sales driven. Even discontinued products will receive similar level of attention.

For the record, Cayin didn't offer any product customization service in the past, be it hardware or software, and we have no intention to do that with N8 at this moment.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Andykong]

You are assuming that balanced will be universally better than the tubes or vice versa. That's ignoring the synergy and use case each output may have for each person and their respective gear, not to mention the possibility of having multiple sound signatures from the same DAP using different configurations.

But I do agree that it should be clarified and made more apparent that the tubes only work in SE.

I'm not sure where you got the info that the balanced output on thr N8 is better, especially with how much of a differentiating factor the use of the Nutubes is in their SE output. The only listening impressions I've seen are from Mimouille and he didnt try the SE output. Perhaps the tubes may even sound better to most people but balanced provides more power for harder to drive cans or IEMs. Or perhaps again they are equally powerful but with one output sounding warmer than the other. Which again would make it an alternative, not better, output. But we know none of this for certain, which therefore makes your presumed logic illogical

Couldn't have explain it better. Thanks you for your logical explanation.

I have started the FAQ at #3 and included the Singled-end limitation of tube headphone output in the list, will clarify this again when we compile the N8 product page on our website. Let's hope users and potential users of N8 will be well aware of that.

 

[Andykong]

1. I'm not assuming that.
I believe the idea is to use the best output available. That depends on implementation, but your product has a balanced output, so presumably you think that is a good idea.
Otherwise, you could just have a SE output and simplify the design. If balanced isn't the best output, then why add it on to your product?
I was just noting that if people want to use balanced headphones they can't utilize the Nutubes.
I think that is factually accurate and will come up as people consider buying this
Or, buy it and not realize this fact. Bookmark my comments and we'll see.


2. Since I and others don't have access to this DAP and it is hard to compare multiple DAPs at once except at various events -- that not everyone can attend -- this is what we do on audio forums.
We are intrigued by various products and designs, ask questions and speculate.
If you want to send me a loaner I would be happy to listen and make up my own mind.
I am DAP shopping, so very interested.


3. I am sure every reviewer WILL compare the output sound characteristics of the same DAP.
Why wouldn't they.
If balanced is not the optimal design in this DAP, they will say that.
If balanced is the optimal output but can't use the Nutubes, I'm sure potential buyers will want to know that.


The reason I am on this thread is that I am DAP shopping and this product sounds interesting.

Mike

Since @fuhransahis has explained my thoughts to a large extend, I just fill in on several issues:

(1) when we develop a product, we see ourselves as a "facilitator", we'll do whatever we can to enable our customer to enjoy music through our products, and we always want to entertain a larger audience group if possible. When I said facilitators, we try not to change the way they listen to music, nor require them to change their gears in order to use our products. That's why we provide top quality audio performance on both single-ended and balanced connection. We don't have the concept of "the best output" when we develop a product, we simply want to do our best in each option, severing our customers the best we could, at their pace and at their ways.

(2) I am not sure if you understand the concept of balanced amplification, or referred as fully differential amplifier technically. In simplified terms, regular single-ended amplification requires two channels of amplification: L and R channel. Balanced amplification will required four channels of amplification: L+, L-, R+ and R-. In most DAP implementation, if they have opted for balanced route, quite often they'll compromise on the single-ended option by using the L+ and R+ directly. For this reason, when you compare the balanced output and single-ended output of the SAME DAP, you are basically comparing 4 channel amplification vs 2 channel amplification, or in other word, 100% of a DAP vs 50% of a DAP. that's why I said this is not a fair comparison of balanced vs single-ended.

Let's look at the balanced vs single-ended issue from a different perspective. If I were to develop a DAP and assigned $100 budget for the amplification circuit. when I go for balanced option, I can only spend $25 to each channel of amplification. When I go for single-ended option, I can spend $50 to each channel of amplification, that means better parts or more sophisticated design for each channel. With this approach, you are comparing 2x$50 two-channels single-ended output vs 4x$25 four-channels balanced output, this is a fair comparison to my understanding.

 

[Mimouille]

Well, they'll be reluctant unless they know for sure you can understand Putonghua/Mandarin.

No problem, it is more to get a complete impression. I did speak to them in (bad) Mandarin.

 

[soundblast75]

This is an easy dap to miss then, especially at 3K, the Nutubes would be the only interesting thing about it, design would not be to anyone out of Asia taste and new daps sound awesome in balanced for a lot less