[mgsu]

It’s no longer constructive when we are labelled deaf and called lazy. Yes, I felt offended by these labelling.

Edit: my first and last response to this fw debate. I belong to the camp who are not bothered about fw upgrades

I did not called anyone deaf. The call came from an other headfier and it was as a response to someone who doubt his hearing abilities.

Lazy, yes, the call came from me. Sorry if someone felt offended. It was a general call and not to someone specific.
Reason is that people who did not try 1.2 are arguing with those who did. Its ridiculous!

 

[gezuz420]

Back in the days of the ZX500, there were tons of discussions about which firmware update changes the sound in what way and how the apps sound different and how the bit perfect settings change the sound and so on. People even complained at the app maker on why their app sounds worse than others and so on.

I then used my professional DI to record the output of the ZX500 playing several reference songs with different firmware versions, different apps and different settings in the player (bit perfect and not bit perfect).

The result was that all sounded 100% identical. Even when you changed from bit-perfect to downconvert (16/44.1), the only difference was that everything above 20kHz was gone.

So in my experience, people can discuss for months how different the apps, firmware versions and settings sound but in the end, if you use the exact same technology that was used to record and make these songs in the first place, there is no difference.

I also did a blind test with IER-M9 and i was not able to distinguish any of them, at all.

I was only slightly surprised that i was not able to detect any difference, i was much more surprised that it turned out that almost everyone in this thread (even though nobody tested it and/or did an blindtest) was 100% sure there were differences which caused a big flamewar

Could you measure the difference between Cayin Music App and Hiby Music App and Tidal using the tester?

I hear a difference between these three apps on both N8ii and N30LE with Tidal > Hiby app > Cayin app. I wonder if tester is sensitive enough to test out the difference?

I'm thinking if tester can't identify the difference between cables then it can't identify the subtle difference between apps. But the difference is definitely there and quite obvious....

 

[Kobe4ever]

What a joke
Please just go back to your time domain or whatever is that. You watch too much Jujutsu Kaisen maybe? Let us enjoy this thread like before and keep all your nonsense blabbering to yourself. You like the 1.2 FW so much? Then enjoy it and just shut up. Thanks for letting us know, but in the end it's my own stuff and you don't need to tell me what to do. There are people here asking more important thing and they need help from @Andykong, but because you talk too much, their post got pushed back and end up unanswered. Btw not going to reply to your response. Welcome to my ignore list

 

[Andykong]

What a joke
Please just go back to your time domain or whatever is that. You watch too much Jujutsu Kaisen maybe? Let us enjoy this thread like before and keep all your nonsense blabbering to yourself. You like the 1.2 FW so much? Then enjoy it and just shut up. Thanks for letting us know, but in the end it's my own stuff and you don't need to tell me what to do. There are people here asking more important thing and they need help from @Andykong, but because you talk too much, their post got pushed back and end up unanswered. Btw not going to reply to your response. Welcome to my ignore list

Don't worry, I have done my part in following up with firmware changing audio performance quest. I have explained Cayin's position and states explicitly that I am not going to response to assumptions such as Cayin changed the voltage of their circuit. I'll make sure I'll maintain reasonable response time to bugs and requests across all the Cayin product threads and PMs.

 

[Quartex]

I see it the same,

what i dont understand that people get personally offended by constructive criticism and sabotage the community of people who point at weak points of N30 firmware, who are good intended and wants to push the device forward.

*PLONK*

... what a relief ...

 

[leonm12]

That is a very good question @Andykong. Also, can you provide more details about the voltage/power management related changes performed on 1.3 , thanks.

Actually my question above is a result of downgrading and testing yesterday. I have similar impression with the AP combo (P mode, Class A, Mid gain, Modern tube) but at the same time I am very careful not making statements here especially because I have no way to run side by side A/B test..

UPDATE: after doing more extensive listening to select tracks all firmwares sound the same to me (1.2, 1.3, 1.4). I will not be able to tell the difference on blind test. Just sharing my personal impression... thanks.

We have submitted a firmware to a particular "body" for licenses approval 6 months ago, so far we have heard any feedback, thet dont even response to our email follow up.

That's odd but I think the issue Roon has is larger than specific integration when it comes to bit-perfect exclusive device access to internal audio device. It is on their agenda but low priority. I don't think they care much about DAPs as much as they care about other features (e.g. USB DACs, DSP, etc) see here - https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-arc-bitperfect-playback-for-daps/216237/25?page=2

You have sent an email to service@cayin.cn? I read about a similar case in the CS chat group on Monday morning. Last I checked, CS passed this case to our service engineer, and they replicated the problem and added this to the bug list in the late afternoon. I assume CS will contact the person by email and keep him updated.

Sorry for the delay, for the record, our customer service didn't respond to customer inquiries during the weekend and we are in the GMT+8 time zone.

I'll spend alternate weekends with family, so if you see me this weekend on HeadFi, you won't see me next weekend, .... roughly something like that.

Hi @Andykong , I have not heard back from Cayin since then, does 1.4 contain a fix to this issue? thank you.

 

[RonaldS86]

I see it the same,

what i dont understand that people get personally offended by constructive criticism and sabotage the community of people who point at weak points of N30 firmware, who are good intended and wants to push the device forward.

You consider your critics constructive? How self righteous are you?
Only you and several user here feel that it's a weakness. Majority of us is not, and I believe you know in this hobby we all have different ears? Or maybe this is the first time you know about that?
It's you who sabotage this thread and make a ruckus and nobody else. Too ignorant to realize that? If you use your head a little, who in the right mind want to degrade their own product quality with every new FW update? Go figures

 

[phiemon]

What a joke
Please just go back to your time domain or whatever is that. You watch too much Jujutsu Kaisen maybe? Let us enjoy this thread like before and keep all your nonsense blabbering to yourself. You like the 1.2 FW so much? Then enjoy it and just shut up. Thanks for letting us know, but in the end it's my own stuff and you don't need to tell me what to do. There are people here asking more important thing and they need help from @Andykong, but because you talk too much, their post got pushed back and end up unanswered. Btw not going to reply to your response. Welcome to my ignore list

You consider your critics constructive? How self righteous are you?
Only you and several user here feel that it's a weakness. Majority of us is not, and I believe you know in this hobby we all have different ears? Or maybe this is the first time you know about that?
It's you who sabotage this thread and make a ruckus and nobody else. Too ignorant to realize that? If you use your head a little, who in the right mind want to degrade their own product quality with every new FW update? Go figures

Hey, in my opinion, that's no longer a respectful way to behave. It makes you immediately vulnerable. That's not right. Just leave it alone.

 

[RonaldS86]

Hey, in my opinion, that's no longer a respectful way to behave. It makes you immediately vulnerable. That's not right. Just leave it alone.

Sorry but did he respect the others too?
He doesn't respect people that disagree with him that there's no sound change between FW then why should I? Like I said people hear differently, so why did he try so hard to make people agree with him.
I will leave him alone if he stops defending himself

 

[mgsu]

You consider your critics constructive? How self righteous are you?
Only you and several user here feel that it's a weakness. Majority of us is not, and I believe you know in this hobby we all have different ears? Or maybe this is the first time you know about that?
It's you who sabotage this thread and make a ruckus and nobody else. Too ignorant to realize that? If you use your head a little, who in the right mind want to degrade their own product quality with every new FW update? Go figures

Ok, look, once again. Go back in the thread and read for your self that i mentioned several times not to downgrade to 1.2 if you are happy with the performance of N30

I did not forced anybody to do something. Its ridiculous.

To better understand my back story:

about 3 weeks after updating to 1.3, i was on the fence to sell my N30 because i felt that it was missing something. I was listening more to my old DX314 than N30.

Then i realized that maybe it has something to do with the new 1.3 firmware,
because (from memory) with 1.2, N30 was a joyful listening experience.

Then i downgraded to 1.2 and i felt like a vail was removed in front of me: midrange more detailed, more dynamic, sparkling highs etc.

I wrote my findings here on this thread and got DMs confirming my findings.
These messages were from people also siting on the fence thinking about selling N30.

I think switching back to 1.2 saved couple people from selling N30. At the end its a Win Win for the community.

Couple weeks later, the first confirmations popped up on the open thread and the drama began.

We were talking about 1.2 and you guys chimed in (without testing 1.2) and claimed that it is bollocks and the firmware are not affecting the sound.
Lets agree to disagree.

As i stated before: there could be a spread in the manufacturing and assembly process of N30 in which some devices are more sensitive to changes made in the firmware than others.

I think we arrived now at a stage were everyone made his standpoint clear and we can move on.

Thank you all and wish you a joyful (N30) listening experience.

 

[rickles]

Has anyone compared the N30LE with older dual 4499-based players like the Fiio M15?

 

[Auricon]

Has anyone compared the N30LE with older dual 4499-based players like the Fiio M15?

Personally no. In the end it comes down to the DAC implementation and corresponding amp – not many brands excel at extracting the most of out of previous generation of AKM DACs 4497EQ and 4499EQ. Cayin N30LE, iBasso 3MAX and Sony DMP have been the best I've owned or listened. L&P's upcoming E7 should be another.

For example, Fiio's poor implementation of the AKM 4497 and pairing it with THX AAA-78 in the limited run M11+ LTD. Decent dap, phenomenal DAC paired with analytically dry amp.

M15 is a reference-like neutral and airy DAP – if that's the type of DAP signature you're seeking. There are other shortcomings to M15 in regards to specs compared to today's DAPs – the market has moved rapidly in 2 years.

You're getting more with N30LE than just Cayin's masterful implementation of 4499EQ – triple timbres (Tube Classic, Tube Modern, SS), 3-power modes, powerful amp section, etc.

 

[aaf evo]

Has anyone compared the N30LE with older dual 4499-based players like the Fiio M15?

I had the FiiO M15 a very long time ago and also had the N30 LE… to put it short, they are not comparable.

 

[phiemon]

@Andykong and others

I was testing the N30 for gaming yesterday and I observed that there is quite notable delay/lag/latency (call it what you want) of the audio signal in the different settings of bitrate. Few things are strange:

1. in the driver settings, the delay can be regulated by setting the shaders (?, I can't remember what it's called, I'm not at my PC right now): the lower, the less delay according to the app. But at the lowest setting (specified 1.30-1.70 ms) there is significantly more delay than at the higher setting (specified 25-30 ms or even more).

2. as a rule, the lower the bit rate, the less delay. But the opposite is true here.

3. there is more delay with "Safe mode".

4. important: with all the DAPs I have tried that have exactly the same type of app (I assume the basic drivers are the same), the app has behaved exactly the opposite: the lower the settings of the shaders, the less delay. And there was more delay exactly in safe mode. And with these daps there was no observable delay, absolutely nothing.

Yes, I know how to deal with this: I have uninstalled all previous drivers, really everything, not only from the Windows settings, but also with a specific driver uninstaller app. I deleted every system file.

So the question is: Is this all normal or is there something wrong with the drivers?

 

[eatmoreplant]

Volume 7

I am on Low Gain in P Mode at 39 volume.

I injured my ears when listening to Grado RS1 to sleep daily, stopped for 10 years but then fell into this rabbit hole again during covid. Am very blessed still can enjoy this hobby at low volume. AP has one of the lowest pressure on the ear, I can’t use Trailli or IER-Z1R as they put too much pressure on my ears, causing discomfort. They don’t have vent or vent is not helping.