[zoidbb]

@osocan Can you talk a bit more about how the bass rendering is on MM? My main concern about MM is the lack of DD — is there substantial bass impact like one would expect from an empire ears IEM?

Raven intrigued me. I was an in-at-the-start/pre-order EE FE Odin buyer. Still have and love them (in my ears right now). But I swore I wouldn't do any more universal IEMs at that price level or above. I haven't, in general, been the biggest IEM fan anyway ... but needs must ... and I want custom over $3K now. Willing to audition as universals, but not buying anything not CIEM at that level going forward - and I understand Raven is too big to do a CIEM on (would love to be wrong).

I agree, CIEM is the best way to go. I love my 64audio N8s, and have been separate to find a good upgrade. I’m thinking I might cancel my Raven pre-order and go for Multiverse Mentor if the bass is going to be up to par… considering it’s available as a CIEM, and Raven won’t be.

 

[Andykong]

Day 3 update regarding the hissing issue of N30LE.

We have picked FOUR N30LE from our inventory, adjusted the operation bias to our new reference parameters, went through the QA process again, and sent out these DAPs to the dealers of the four users who reported the hissing problem. We have adjusted our plan from three units to four units because, on top of the three local N30LE users, we have included Torq in this round. We have contacted MusicTeck and will send out a re-biased N30LE as a replacement for Torq’s N30LE. Since Torq’s case was confirmed as early as 13 September, we feel reluctant to exclude him from the first-round solution. We are still working on the QA process as I type, so the replacement units will be sent out first thing tomorrow morning.

We have collected more information regarding the adjustment of operation bias at the production line level. On the four units of N30LE we have processed today, the fine-tuning of the static Class A operating current is in the range of 1.2mA to 2mA. The new parameter is actually within the permissible range of the original parameter. The impact on the sound, performance indicators, battery life, and heat dissipation is indifferentiable.

Assuming the new batch of DAP can pass the hissing test with the IEM/headphone/cable that they had trouble with previously, we’ll send out another batch of N30LE to our overseas dealers immediately, and they can replace the hissing N30LE of their client. We have worked out the detailed schedule today, given we have a long (8 days) National Day public holiday coming up, we need to send out the replacement unit to our international dealers on or before 27th September. To speed things up, Cayin will work with the dealers closely and cover all the transaction and logistic costs, so our dealer can focus on helping our users expedite the replacement promptly.

This is a very tight schedule; we’ll focus all deployable resources to meet this deadline. I would like to remind N30LE users if you have encountered the hissing problem, please contact your dealer, and keep them informed on the IEM/headphone/cable that caused the hissing problem, Since cables play an important role in the hissing problem, so would appreciate if you can provide information regarding your choice of cable in each hissing combination. If you can tell your dealer the other gears that DO NOT hiss with N30LE like Torq’s update, that would be very helpful.

We deeply apologize for the inconvenience caused and understand that we should have done better in considering more aspects. We learned a lot regarding cable and connector variance in this exercise. This is a valuable experience and lesson, and we appreciate everyone's understanding, support, and love for Cayin along the way.

 

[zoidbb]

Day 3 update regarding the hissing issue of N30LE.

We have picked FOUR N30LE from our inventory, adjusted the operation bias to our new reference parameters, went through the QA process again, and sent out these DAPs to the dealers of the four users who reported the hissing problem. We have adjusted our plan from three units to four units because, on top of the three local N30LE users, we have included Torq in this round. We have contacted MusicTeck and will send out a re-biased N30LE as a replacement for Torq’s N30LE. Since Torq’s case was confirmed as early as 13 September, we feel reluctant to exclude him from the first-round solution. We are still working on the QA process as I type, so the replacement units will be sent out first thing tomorrow morning.

We have collected more information regarding the adjustment of operation bias at the production line level. On the four units of N30LE we have processed today, the fine-tuning of the static Class A operating current is in the range of 1.2mA to 2mA. The new parameter is actually within the permissible range of the original parameter. The impact on the sound, performance indicators, battery life, and heat dissipation is indifferentiable.

Assuming the new batch of DAP can pass the hissing test with the IEM/headphone/cable that they had trouble with previously, we’ll send out another batch of N30LE to our overseas dealers immediately, and they can replace the hissing N30LE of their client. We have worked out the detailed schedule today, given we have a long (8 days) National Day public holiday coming up, we need to send out the replacement unit to our international dealers on or before 27th September. To speed things up, Cayin will work with the dealers closely and cover all the transaction and logistic costs, so our dealer can focus on helping our users expedite the replacement promptly.

This is a very tight schedule; we’ll focus all deployable resources to meet this deadline. I would like to remind N30LE users if you have encountered the hissing problem, please contact your dealer, and keep them informed on the IEM/headphone/cable that caused the hissing problem, Since cables play an important role in the hissing problem, so would appreciate if you can provide information regarding your choice of cable in each hissing combination. If you can tell your dealer the other gears that DO NOT hiss with N30LE like Torq’s update, that would be very helpful.

We deeply apologize for the inconvenience caused and understand that we should have done better in considering more aspects. We learned a lot regarding cable and connector variance in this exercise. This is a valuable experience and lesson, and we appreciate everyone's understanding, support, and love for Cayin along the way.

Hopefully the new unit solves the problem. I’m happy to see Torq go ahead of me, despite the fact I reported my issue to my dealer two days earlier — he’s already on a second hissing unit, and I don’t want to exchange mine out until everything is confirmed fixed.

 

[aaf evo]

Will you have any information for those of us that currently do not have any issues with hissing/noise but have concerns at the possibility of encountering this issue down the road?

 

[Andykong]

[Tagging @Andykong again, since he will need to carry this forward.]

The remedy I would like to see (and that I don’t think Cayin will go for):

Cayin* guarantees a 100% (full MSRP**), no questions asked, refund, at any time, between now and a proper fix being established and the fully functioning, repaired unit being back in the owners’ hands.

This is to protect users that decide to wait for a fix, in good faith, without knowing how long that is going to take, or what it is going to entail, and then learning that it will take longer or be more involved than they are then willing to deal with.

Further, Cayin extends the warranty (including all shipping, labor and parts costs) for this particular issue to “lifetime” and makes it transferrable to subsequent owners. ALL repaired units should be supplied with a repair certificate, indicating the associated unit’s serial number.

This is to protect the resale value and secondary owners who may be unaware of the issue.

Finally, once a fix is confirmed, and available, users can send their units in, at their convenience, for repair with the above terms still in place, at any point in the unit's lifetime (will need to be defined; maybe a 5 year limit).

This is to protect those users who may choose to wait until just before they elect to resell the unit, as they don’t have the issue/or it doesn’t occur with their IEMs, headphones or cables and thus don’t need to be inconvenienced in their usage, nor penalized later on.

---

The above doesn't ask for compensation or consideration in anything other than a swift, complete repair and the option not to deal with further hassle or inconvenience at whatever point the customer decides "enough is enough".

It lets users that want to/aren't (immediately) affected, continue to enjoy their units, while protecting the value/performance of the unit later on.

For example, I decide to wait out the repair. It then turns out that with all the shipping, fixing and testing, the unit will be out of my hands for 6 weeks. I don't want to deal with that, and am not happy with the unit as-is for the long term, so I can opt out, at that point, without penalty and still receive a 100% refund.

I think this is reasonable in light of:

It is currently not being possible to predict what headphones/cables will be affected by these issues, nor even if it will be the same for every unit, due to the nature of tolerances etc. Therefore, it should be assumed that anycurrent unit could exhibit this issue in the future with a new IEM or headphone (or cable) pairing.

For example, I’m an EE Odin user and everything seems fine with my unit. A year later, I buy the IE600 … and those result in the hiss problem emerging and are unlistenable. Now I know I have a faulty unit, and no chance of a refund from my dealer (entirely reasonably).

---

For me:

Right now, I have the option to return my 2nd N30LE for a refund.

This is the safe choice.

It also means I’m giving up on the N30LE, which is by far the best DAP or transportable unit I’ve heard (and I’ve heard all that I’m aware of). Due to its limited-edition nature, I doubt I’d be able to get another with a warranty/refund option and/or confirmed repair.

I'd prefer NOT to give up the N30LE, and I can muddle through with other IEMs and/or IEMatch for a modest period, and assuming a quick turnaround on repairs (a couple of weeks, once available), but there is a very limited degree to which I am willing to roll the dice on this one.

I have to decide very quickly as do, I'm sure, others. So a prompt response, or an alternate proposal would be greatly appreciated.

---
*It's up to Cayin how they work this out with their dealers, but I don't think the dealers should be penalized.
**I don't care what the dealer margin is, just that the end-customer is made whole.

We are devoting all our resources to expediting the replacement arrangement right now. I'll include your request/suggestion to Cayin management when the time is right. They hear your voice before we break for the National Day holiday. As a consultant, I am looking up reference examples such as Focal's handling of Utopia Headphone repair problems for Cayin's consideration. Based on my observation, the discussion and decision will take a few days but I'll make sure it won't drag on too long. Please be patient and remain positive given that Cayin has responded to the problem promptly and constructively so far.

 

[Andykong]

Hopefully the new unit solves the problem. I’m happy to see Torq go ahead of me, despite the fact I reported my issue to my dealer two days earlier — he’s already on a second hissing unit, and I don’t want to exchange mine out until everything is confirmed fixed.

I have built an Excel sheet to keep track of the complaints in the past two days, Torq's case was confirmed on 13 September and we have arranged a replacement for him on that day. Your hissing problem reappeared on 16 Sept.. That was indeed close, given we can only build a small batch for verification purposes in one day, I have put Torq on the list. I'll make sure your case will be followup up promptly after we verify our solution.

 

[zoidbb]

I have built an Excel sheet to keep track of the complaints in the past two days, Torq's case was confirmed on 13 September and we have arranged a replacement for him on that day. Your hissing problem reappeared on 16 Sept.. That was indeed close, given we can only build a small batch for verification purposes in one day, I have put Torq on the list. I'll make sure your case will be followup up promptly after we verify our solution.

Oh I wasn’t complaining, just thought it was silly to use the date as a reason, especially since I first reported the issue on 9/11. Torq absolutely needs to be the first overseas customer with a new unit, but for way better reasons than a date. They’ve had the most comprehensive test data, and they’ve dealt with one exchange already without seeing their problem solved.

 

[Torq]

We have adjusted our plan from three units to four units because, on top of the three local N30LE users, we have included Torq in this round. We have contacted MusicTeck and will send out a re-biased N30LE as a replacement for Torq’s N30LE. Since Torq’s case was confirmed as early as 13 September, we feel reluctant to exclude him from the first-round solution.

Hi Andy,

I appreciate the update, and the measures being taken - as well as being included in the first round of adjusted units.

I reached out to MusicTeck just to connect the dots on this, so now I'm just waiting to hear how things will work from this point.

Questions that come to mind (that you may not be able to answer yet, or may have to defer to MusicTeck):

• What does the timeline look like?
• When do I need to return this unit?
• Do I have to ship this unit back first (or can an advance replacement be done)?
• Is it just the DAP unit itself that is being replaced or will it be the entire package (doesn't matter either way, but if its just the DAP itself, then can you include the two glass screen protectors with it as I will need those for the replacement)?

Anyway, thanks for the update and the focus on getting things fixed, and we'll see how this goes.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong feature request: warm-up mode. I’d like to click a button to kick on the amp circuit to my preferred settings and let it reach operation temp, without needing to play music. It takes almost 45m for this bugger to really reach optimal temperature and “open up” — even when not using the tubes. My listening sessions aren’t always long enough to allow for it to warm up before I need to stop listening.

You need a load in order to warm up quickly. Software settings without loading will take much longer to warm up.

I have DIY a small gadget to burn in my DAPs without needing an IEM/headphone and it should fit your purpose. A 300Ohm resistor on a 4.4mm or 2.5mm connector. You need a 2.5mm to 4.4mm adapter if you want to use this on DAP with a 4.4mm phone out.

The DAP will treat these as a 300Ohm headphones, and you can set your DAP to whatever setting or volume level. It will operate at a higher power than plugging in your 32ohm IEM. Any cable builder can do this for you, you can just plug it in, hit play and the DAP will warm up in no time.

 

[Andykong]

Hi Andy,

I appreciate the update, and the measures being taken - as well as being included in the first round of adjusted units.

I reached out to MusicTeck just to connect the dots on this, so now I'm just waiting to hear how things will work from this point.

Questions that come to mind (that you may not be able to answer yet, or may have to defer to MusicTeck):

• What does the timeline look like?
• When do I need to return this unit?
• Do I have to ship this unit back first (or can an advance replacement be done)?
• Is it just the DAP unit itself that is being replaced or will it be the entire package (doesn't matter either way, but if its just the DAP itself, then can you include the two glass screen protectors with it as I will need those for the replacement)?

Anyway, thanks for the update and the focus on getting things fixed, and we'll see how this goes.

I make suggestions, but I can't keep track of the actual logistics. I am trying to solve a problem so I don't have a detailed plan on what date you need to return which player etc. We can come back to work this out later when you verify the solution.

 

[zoidbb]

You need a load in order to warm up quickly. Software setting without loading will take much longer to warm up.

I have DIY a small gadget to burn in my DAPs without needing an IEM/headphone and it should fit your purpose. . A 300Ohm resistor on a 4.4mm or 2.5mm connector.

The DAP will treat this as a 300Ohm headphones, and you can set your DAP to whatever setting or volume level. It will operate at higher power than plugging in your 32ohm IEM. Any cable builder can do this for you, you can just plug it in, hit play and the DAP will warm up in no time.

Shouldn’t need a load to heat the tubes. nutubes are directly-heated. They have heater filaments. And realistically the idle heat dissipation should be sufficient for the amp to heat up rapidly if in class A mode during warm-up. In-fact in class A it should heat up faster with no load, since it would be at maximum idle and dissipating /everything/ — instead of part of the power being fed into a load.

 

[Allears79]

Will you have any information for those of us that currently do not have any issues with hissing/noise but have concerns at the possibility of encountering this issue down the road?

+1 and I come back to my question of if there is a new parameter that fix the hiss problem, shouldn’t it be applied to all units in the long run to avoid problems in the future when warranty is expired or other conditions??

 

[RonaldS86]

+1 and I come back to my question of if there is a new parameter that fix the hiss problem, shouldn’t it be applied to all units in the long run to avoid problems in the future when warranty is expired or other conditions??

+1 too regarding this. My unit are working fine for now, but I don't know what will happen later with when I bought new IEM and cables.

 

[Torq]

Have you tried Storm? Many people said it has one of the best BA bass. I myself always prefer a DD bass, but I'm eager to try the Storm.

I have not.

I'd be interested too ... but absent someone physically close to me buying one, I probably won't get to either. My antipathy towards IEMs that use BA bass drivers means that I'm not going to go out of my way to try and hear a $5,000+ universal IEM, with a 3 month lead/build time, that uses BA-drivers for bass, either.

So, if a convenient opportunity to listen to the Storm comes up, I'll certainly take it - and if it doesn't have the BA-bass issues that every other IEM I've tried has I'll certainly change my tune. But even if it was the best bass I'd heard in an IEM ever ... I'd still want it as a custom at $5,000!

Can you talk a bit more about how the bass rendering is on MM? My main concern about MM is the lack of DD — is there substantial bass impact like one would expect from an empire ears IEM?

I suspect you meant to reply to @osocan - as I've not heard the Mentor Multiverse.

I'm not focused on the IEM market to begin with, so I don't really keep up with what's what there ... but the minute I see BAs for sub-bass/bass driver duties, I lose interest.

 

[zoidbb]

I have not.

I'd be interested too ... but absent someone physically close to me buying one, I probably won't get to either. My antipathy towards IEMs that use BA bass drivers means that I'm not going to go out of my way to try and hear a $5,000+ universal IEM, with a 3 month lead/build time, that uses BA-drivers for bass, either.

So, if a convenient opportunity to listen to the Storm comes up, I'll certainly take it - and if it doesn't have the BA-bass issues that every other IEM I've tried has I'll certainly change my tune. But even if it was the best bass I'd heard in an IEM ever ... I'd still want it as a custom at $5,000!



I suspect you meant to reply to @osocan - as I've not heard the Mentor Multiverse.

I'm not focused on the IEM market to begin with, so I don't really keep up with what's what there ... but the minute I see BAs for sub-bass/bass driver duties, I lose interest.

Yuppp I sure did. Sorry about that.