[Andykong]

That's very good news.

Does the N30LE have any Oversampling filters for the DAC section?

AKM provides 6 digital filters for PCM, and 2 digital filters for DSD. We are fine-tuning the settings and UI of these digital filters in the next beta firmware (a weekly-based ongoing process).

 

[ThanatosVI]

DAO (Class A/AB), Dual Output Mode (P/P+), and the ultimate Hyper Mode

The Dual Amplifier Operation (DAO) implies the same amplification circuit in two distinctive modes of operations: Class A or Class AB. The difference between the two modes is simply the point at which the transistors are biased. In the case of Class A, the transistor is biased so that it will maintain linear operation over the entire signal cycle, while Class AB will compromise on linearity but improve significantly on efficiency by biasing the circuit to respond to amplification operation accordingly. Class A is a faithful reproduction of the input signals at lower distortion, but we cannot jump to the conclusion that one is better than the others in real life.

On the other hand, Dual Output Mode (DOM) regulates the operational voltage of the headphone amplification circuit to offer P (Standard) and P+ (High Power) modes. When we increase the voltage of our discrete headphone amplification circuit, it will not only deliver more power and improve its handling capability but also changed the sound of the discrete components. In other words, your IEM probably won’t need the extra power of the P+ mode, but it won’t hurt to have an alternative sound signature from their DAP.

DOM was first introduced in the original N8 (May 2018) while DAO was first introduced in E01 Andio Motherboard of N6ii (Dec 2019). We have implemented both features in numerous portable audio products ever since and they should be no strangers to Cayin users. We are not going to explain them in detail, if you are interested to read more about DAO and DOM, please check out our explanation n N8ii thread (HERE).

Portable audio products always have various limitations due to physical constraints such as size, heat dissipation, and battery life, and one of the limitations with DAO and DOM is that we can’t use Class A and P+ modes at the same time. The power supply system will have a hard time trying to fulfill the power requirements of Class A with P+, and the heat generated will be substantial even when we operate in this condition even for just a short while. There was a lot of discussion “speculating” (and requesting) Class A with P+ in N8ii thread, and we decided to demonstrate its feasibility and practicality in N30LE. Unlike previous products, regardless of balanced or single-ended output, Class A, Class AB, P, and P+ modes can be freely combined in N30LE, meaning users can choose the A and P+ simultaneously.

On top of enabling the Class A with P+ combination, we have decided to develop an ultimate “Hyper” mode. Ultimate is just an adjective within this relative framework. When our engineers prioritize audio output as the single most important factor and put all constraints such as heat dissipation and battery life asides. The idea of providing users with the most powerful audio performance mode comes into play, and this is where Hyper mode comes from.

Hyper mode in N30LE is more than activating Class A and P+ mode at the same time. It further adjusts and enhances the static working current and voltage under the Class A setting, achieving an “on the edge” operating condition that we have kept a safe distance from in the past. In Hyper mode, N30LE will sing in full dynamic without compromising the transparency and naturalness of the playback. The soundstage is expanded and well-organized.

Once Hyper mode is selected, both DAO and DOM are pre-selected, you can’t make further adjustments to these features. The good news is, The Hyper mode is independent of our Timbre circuit, so you can select Nutube Classic, Nutube Modern, and Solid-state timbre freely.



“For everything you gain, you lose something else.” Ralph Waldo Emerson

Unfortunately, Hyper mode will generate a lot of heat. The internal aluminum frame and the Titanium chassis will disperse the heat effectively (yes, the chassis become a big piece of the heatsink of the circuitry), but we strongly recommend you use this mode in well-ventilated conditions. In addition, the Hyper mode will consume a battery like a V12 sports car. Even with a 12570mAh battery, the Hyper mode will only sustain around 7.5 hours in the most demanding condition (4.4mm balanced phone out and Vacuum tube timbre), maybe shorter if we playback Hi-Res music format, turn on your screen and connected to WiFi or BT during playback. At 3.5mm single-ended phone out and solid-state timbre, you might be able to playback up to 11.5 hours continuously.

When we implement the discrete Class A amplification in N30LE, we have to make sure all four amplification channels are in near-identical gain. We have to manually match critical components and installed them to the PCB manually before reflow soldering. This is because the discrete components are not available in a form factor that can be installed with the automated PCBA process. In addition, we must control the static current so that the discrete components will remain perfectly stable operation in saturation mode, therefore adjustments is needed to compensate for the deviation caused by discrete components. As illustrated in the PCB photo below, there are FOUR adjustable resistors in place. We’ll fine-tune each assembled PCB manually to match our reference design. All these procedures involve extra resources and are very time-consuming, that’s why discrete Class A is an expensive option, especially on compact devices such as portable DAP.

I know there is one last question you want to ask: can we implement these features in mass-production DAP such as N8ii? The critical requirements of Hyper mode (or Class A and P+ concurrently) are:

• better than the best power supply system - N30LE has the biggest battery (12670mAH) among Cayin DAPs, and the low internal resistance, high output power EDLC ultracapacitor will store and supply energy for the momentarily drain from the audio circuit.
• extremely efficient heat dissipation system - N30LE has employed multiple tricks to direct and transmit the internal heat energy, to the internal CNC aluminum frame, which in turn will,, as mentioned previously, use the titanium chassis as a heat sink. When Hyper mode generates a lot of heat energy, we need to increase the total surface area of the heat sink, which means bigger will have an advantage over smaller DAP in this regard.

This really looks like the best DAP currently on the market

 

[Andykong]

Understood but you must understand we audiophiles would mostly consider performance beyond what we have now to tempt us to break the bank and buy, we know already Cayin makes really great products . So it will be good to know that there is also Significant audio improvement. N6II Ti was limited but was not a significant improvement over N6ii
I really look forward to honest impressions then I will talk to Andrew @MusicTeck about getting one

I am not sure if I understand your question correctly, or if this is a question to start with. So it will be good to know that there is also significant audio improvement.? improvement against what? Do you want to compare N30LE against N8ii? We have explained the design and technologies of N8ii in great detail, so we are going to do that with N30LE. Hopefully, you can arrive at your own conclusion after we are done with our explanation work. If you are looking for an impression to compare N30LE vs N8ii, then you need to wait till September 2023 because the N30LE is scheduled to ship by 28 August.

I assume you know that N6ii+ R01 and N6ii-Ti shared the circuit design, components, and PCB, the only difference between the limited edition and regular edition is the metalwork, so it is unfair to complaint that "N6II Ti was limited but was not a significant improvement over N6ii".

I guess me neither since this is limited production quantity

And I can assure you that the limited quantity is for real and there won't be any second round even when there is a demand. We honestly cannot produce more units than we declared. We even engrave the serial number on the chassis of each DAP.

The window is narrow, but at this price range, I can't imagine that the N30LE will be sold out that quickly.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong
Is this beautiful glass for sale?

Not that I am aware of, and we are experienced in handling logistics for fragile products. There is a good reason why I never mention this mug so far.

 

[audionewbi]

@Andy , when are you expecting Zeppling to get their units?

 

[Andykong]

Yeah I know... you should never say this because there is no end to "the quest".

N7 is so good and unique... by the way I wouldn't have minded a 1bit DAC in N30 LE it's so good
And I actually prefer N7 over N8ii, but that's down to taste more than a question of performance. The house sound is there alright and always loved it.
I don't see N7 has lower range than N8ii in fact in terms of performance

I also said I had my price limit and I would never go above 4K$ but...but now you release this amazing transportable and powerful DAP with Classic Tube mode and it came out of nowhere had I known I would have made the choice to wait for it

I have tried big form factor DAPs before as I tend to not use my sedentary that much but I use my DAPs at home or office exclusively (since I don't commute in transportation) so my use case fits the "size and weigh don't matter as long as I can carry it with one hand" which is not most people use case. DX220 Max was not for me, nor was DX300 Max. M17 has this exciting desktop like power that makes it different but I lack the engagement factor and top technicalities of Cayin, Sony or Hiby DAPs. So there comes the N30 LE announcement. How can I resist ?

And now my IEM collection is so huge and great that the next step is probably more the headphone way. So there is that...

Might sound like an anecdote but one thing caught my eye in N30 LE specs "470mF/5.5V ELDC (Electric Double-Layer Capacitor) ultra-capacitor as power reserve in the main power supply system." which has me convinced dynamics will be off the charts and and also that the DCA Stealth will be driven easy peasy to its best (btw FiiO M17 has a similarly spec'ed "supercapacitor" see capture of their specs and marketing below). It's a a "detail" that certainly caught my eye because so far the only DAP featuring this was M17. The macro dynamics you'll get from this I suspect is going to be spectacular.



Of course that's along many other things that I have enjoyed with Cayin DAPs (I have owned N6ii, N6ii Ti, N8ii, N7) A/AB switching and P/P+ mode, NuTube but I confess I wished N8ii had a more organic Tube mode like N8 this will now be fixed with N30 LE Classic Tube mode

So my pre-order is going in to @MusicTeck
Now if you'll excuse me, I'll arrange selling a kidney

Looks like we have broken all your rules.

I just noticed that you have marked the WM1ZM2 as "On sale soon", I am a bit surprised, I thought Fiio is the outgoing item because you said it "lack the engagement factor and top technicalities of Cayin, Sony or Hiby DAPs"

M17 and Shanling M9 Plus can drive the Stealth quite well so I bet N30 LE will be easy peasy and actually will drive it better than both and also be a better match because I love my Stealth with Tubes

@DarginMahkum

In turns of sheer driving power, N30LE is not in a position to challenge the desktop mode of M17. I would love to read your comparison between N30LE and M17 (with battery) in terms of driving capability.

 

[Dixter]

I think you messed up on the price... you should charge $30K for a 30yr product....

 

[Andykong]

If that does mean that the N30LE Design could be adjusted to work with the AK4499EXEQ for a non limited run of N30 in a black chassis it would be win/win for everybody.
Maybe also use an aluminum case to save some costs.

Base on my understanding, AKM has moved the delta-sigma modulation of AK4499EX and AK4499EXEQ to AK4419,, and since AK4499EX and AK4499EXEQ are stereo DAC (2 channel only) so we can assume:

AK4499EQ = AK4191 + 2x AK4499EXEQ.
Dual AK4499EQ = Dual AK4191 + 4x AK4499EXEQ

from 2 chipset solutions to 6 chipset solutions, the implementation in terms of auxiliary circuit and power supply will need to change substantially, and most likely the DAC circuit will consume more space on the PCB. By doing that, we have improved the delta-sigma modulation (AK4191 can handle DSD1024) but we lost 2dB on dynamic range and SN.

... and this is DAC section only, I have serious concerns about whether Hyper mode (or Class A with P+) is a good feature for the general user group. The DAP needs to put on weight and size because of this.

 

[Andykong]

@Andy , when are you expecting Zeppling to get their units?

28 August 2023.

I strongly advise you to give them a call because I can only offer the "official" answer.

 

[aaf evo]

@Andykong given that there’s a minor exterior difference between the N30 LE that comes with the Amber Pearl IEM and the non bundled N30 LE, is it safe to assume that outside of this wording on the back plate that the DAPs are otherwise identical?

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong given that there’s a minor exterior difference between the N30 LE that comes with the Amber Pearl IEM and the non bundled N30 LE, is it safe to assume that outside of this wording on the back plate that the DAPs are otherwise identical?

The serial number will be engraved differently.
The leather case will be marked differently
The packing box will print the model number explicity.

That's about it for external different. Give me a few day, I'll collect all the photo to illustrate the different between the two versons of N30LE.

 

[ThanatosVI]

Base on my understanding, AKM has moved the delta-sigma modulation of AK4499EX and AK4499EXEQ to AK4419,, and since AK4499EX and AK4499EXEQ are stereo DAC (2 channel only) so we can assume:

AK4499EQ = AK4191 + 2x AK4499EXEQ.
Dual AK4499EQ = Dual AK4191 + 4x AK4499EXEQ

from 2 chipset solutions to 6 chipset solutions, the implementation in terms of auxiliary circuit and power supply will need to change substantially, and most like the DAC circuit will consume more space on the PCB. By doing that, we have improved the delta-sigma modulation (AK4191 can handle DSD1024) but we lost 2dB on dynamic range and SN.

... and this is DAC section only, I have serious concerns about whether Hyper mode (or Class A with P+) is a good feature for the general user group. The DAP needs to put on weight and size because of this.

Ah seems I misunderstood something earlier.
I thought that AK4499EXEQ is a new direct replacement for the AK4499EQ used in the N30LE.a

Guess I have to count on my Pulsar to sell before the N30LE is sold out then.

 

[aaf evo]

The serial number will be engraved differently.
The leather case will be marked differently
The packing box will print the model number explicity.

That's about it for external different. Give me a few day, I'll collect all the photo to illustrate the different between the two versons of N30LE.

Thanks for the fast response. As long as the internals/sound is the same between both then that’s all I’m concerned about.

 

[davidmolliere]

Looks like we have broken all your rules.

I just noticed that you have marked the WM1ZM2 as "On sale soon", I am a bit surprised, I thought Fiio is the outgoing item because you said it "lack the engagement factor and top technicalities of Cayin, Sony or Hiby DAPs"

In turns of sheer driving power, N30LE is not in a position to challenge the desktop mode of M17. I would love to read your comparison between N30LE and M17 (with battery) in terms of driving capability.

Glad you broke them, I just would have loved a heads up

No the RS8 and M17 are going on sale but M9 Plus might follow, or all their greatness I can't justify all those DAPs anyway (plus I have to fund back a bit...) and N30 LE I feel will rule them all... N7 would be a smaller companion (plus it pairs so well with Sharona one of my fav CIEM) and 1ZM2 is unique is its own right and a beautiful pair to RN6.

I'll make M17 comparison of course, the sale will happen most likely in september.
Also include RS8, M9 Plus.

 

[RonaldS86]

DAO (Class A/AB), Dual Output Mode (P/P+), and the ultimate Hyper Mode

The Dual Amplifier Operation (DAO) implies the same amplification circuit in two distinctive modes of operations: Class A or Class AB. The difference between the two modes is simply the point at which the transistors are biased. In the case of Class A, the transistor is biased so that it will maintain linear operation over the entire signal cycle, while Class AB will compromise on linearity but improve significantly on efficiency by biasing the circuit to respond to amplification operation accordingly. Class A is a faithful reproduction of the input signals at lower distortion, but we cannot jump to the conclusion that one is better than the others in real life.

On the other hand, Dual Output Mode (DOM) regulates the operational voltage of the headphone amplification circuit to offer P (Standard) and P+ (High Power) modes. When we increase the voltage of our discrete headphone amplification circuit, it will not only deliver more power and improve its handling capability but also changed the sound of the discrete components. In other words, your IEM probably won’t need the extra power of the P+ mode, but it won’t hurt to have an alternative sound signature from their DAP.

DOM was first introduced in the original N8 (May 2018) while DAO was first introduced in E01 Andio Motherboard of N6ii (Dec 2019). We have implemented both features in numerous portable audio products ever since and they should be no strangers to Cayin users. We are not going to explain them in detail, if you are interested to read more about DAO and DOM, please check out our explanation n N8ii thread (HERE).

Portable audio products always have various limitations due to physical constraints such as size, heat dissipation, and battery life, and one of the limitations with DAO and DOM is that we can’t use Class A and P+ modes at the same time. The power supply system will have a hard time trying to fulfill the power requirements of Class A with P+, and the heat generated will be substantial even when we operate in this condition even for just a short while. There was a lot of discussion “speculating” (and requesting) Class A with P+ in N8ii thread, and we decided to demonstrate its feasibility and practicality in N30LE. Unlike previous products, regardless of balanced or single-ended output, Class A, Class AB, P, and P+ modes can be freely combined in N30LE, meaning users can choose the A and P+ simultaneously.

On top of enabling the Class A with P+ combination, we have decided to develop an ultimate “Hyper” mode. Ultimate is just an adjective within this relative framework. When our engineers prioritize audio output as the single most important factor and put all constraints such as heat dissipation and battery life asides. The idea of providing users with the most powerful audio performance mode comes into play, and this is where Hyper mode comes from.

Hyper mode in N30LE is more than activating Class A and P+ mode at the same time. It further adjusts and enhances the static working current and voltage under the Class A setting, achieving an “on the edge” operating condition that we have kept a safe distance from in the past. In Hyper mode, N30LE will sing in full dynamic without compromising the transparency and naturalness of the playback. The soundstage is expanded and well-organized.

Once Hyper mode is selected, both DAO and DOM are pre-selected, you can’t make further adjustments to these features. The good news is, The Hyper mode is independent of our Timbre circuit, so you can select Nutube Classic, Nutube Modern, and Solid-state timbre freely.



“For everything you gain, you lose something else.” Ralph Waldo Emerson

Unfortunately, Hyper mode will generate a lot of heat. The internal aluminum frame and the Titanium chassis will disperse the heat effectively (yes, the chassis become a big piece of the heatsink of the circuitry), but we strongly recommend you use this mode in well-ventilated conditions. In addition, the Hyper mode will consume a battery like a V12 sports car. Even with a 12570mAh battery, the Hyper mode will only sustain around 7.5 hours in the most demanding condition (4.4mm balanced phone out and Vacuum tube timbre), maybe shorter if we playback Hi-Res music format, turn on your screen and connected to WiFi or BT during playback. At 3.5mm single-ended phone out and solid-state timbre, you might be able to playback up to 11.5 hours continuously.

When we implement the discrete Class A amplification in N30LE, we have to make sure all four amplification channels are in near-identical gain. We have to manually match critical components and installed them to the PCB manually before reflow soldering. This is because the discrete components are not available in a form factor that can be installed with the automated PCBA process. In addition, we must control the static current so that the discrete components will remain perfectly stable operation in saturation mode, therefore adjustments is needed to compensate for the deviation caused by discrete components. As illustrated in the PCB photo below, there are FOUR adjustable resistors in place. We’ll fine-tune each assembled PCB manually to match our reference design. All these procedures involve extra resources and are very time-consuming, that’s why discrete Class A is an expensive option, especially on compact devices such as portable DAP.

I know there is one last question you want to ask: can we implement these features in mass-production DAP such as N8ii? The critical requirements of Hyper mode (or Class A and P+ concurrently) are:

• better than the best power supply system - N30LE has the biggest battery (12670mAH) among Cayin DAPs, and the low internal resistance, high output power EDLC ultracapacitor will store and supply energy for the momentarily drain from the audio circuit.
• extremely efficient heat dissipation system - N30LE has employed multiple tricks to direct and transmit the internal heat energy, to the internal CNC aluminum frame, which in turn will,, as mentioned previously, use the titanium chassis as a heat sink. When Hyper mode generates a lot of heat energy, we need to increase the total surface area of the heat sink, which means bigger will have an advantage over smaller DAP in this regard.

So with hyper mode we can still have around 7.5 hours playback? That's a great news
And is that the micro SD card tray next to the right 4.4mm output? Is it going to be covered by the leather case or is it accessible with the case on?