Cayin C9: Dual Nutube, Fully Balanced Class A/AB Portable HeadAmp

[bluestorm1992]

Oh yeah, I meant to refer to the balanced version.

If I'm not wrong they can also be powered just with 4 of the same batteries as the C9, so the only "advantage" they have is a larger physical size (which is usually an advantage but hey...)

This is assuming, of course, that you don't hear a big difference between the Broadway depending on whether it's mains connected at the relevant time.

Happy lunar new year @Andykong and all

Understood. Yes for Broadway I did not hear any difference when the mains powered or not.

I think performance wise, C9 and Broadway are really close. What could be telling them apart is the tuning. The tuning of Broadway is done using the Diana, so by default it is the perfect pairing with it. C9, on the other hand, is intended to fit a wide range of IEMs and headphones, so comparing it (or really any Amp) with Broadway in terms of driving the Diana is really setting a high bar for it. Even in this, I would say C9 does an excellent job.

 

[Andykong]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a replacement IC - mostly because I want to be able to play with the DAP while the C9 is far away.

Do you think there's a limit as to length, after which there's a notable decrease in performance?

I'm thinking 18 inches...

Also, the C9 does run pretty hot? More than I remember of the demo, but I wasn't really trying to carry the demo around. Pressing a finger to it becomes very uncomfortable after 3-4 seconds - is this your experience too?



https://ifi-audio.com/products/4-4mm-to-4-4mm-cable/

Unlike Digital cable (or I2S cable in particular), you can use long cables with analog interconnect. When you connect C9 with your DAP in 3.5mm, the cable is in fact very similar to a pair of RCA interconnect, which 1m is consider "short" cable in home audio application, 1.5m is standard, and 3m is still acceptable. If you run the connection in 4.4mm balanced, you can go for much longer length if the cable is properly shielded.

Therefore 18" is definitely not a problem, you can literally custom make them in any length you need. the only worry is the weight of the cable might stress the soldering point at some point, so don't use heavy duty cable for that purpose. For example, I used Wireworld Nano series when I DIY long interconnect with 3.5mm with ease, but when I converted a pair of Sommer Blue Water Excelsior XLR into 4.4mm, I have to strength the connection with 3 layers of heat-shrink tubes, it looks ugly, but that's how it takes to get it work when you play around with lone/heavy cable for portable connectors.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong I got you lol! You just liked my post.

Happy lunar new year. You will have a lot to review in this thread now lol. I think there are now 20 new pages from the last time you read.

Spoiler

Oh yeah, I meant to refer to the balanced version.

If I'm not wrong they can also be powered just with 4 of the same batteries as the C9, so the only "advantage" they have is a larger physical size (which is usually an advantage but hey...)

This is assuming, of course, that you don't hear a big difference between the Broadway depending on whether it's mains connected at the relevant time.

Happy lunar new year @Andykong and all

Thank you for the new year greetings.

You guys won't stop at all, but I like it.

 

[xand]

Unlike Digital cable (or I2S cable in particular), you can use long cables with analog interconnect. When you connect C9 with your DAP in 3.5mm, the cable is in fact very similar to a pair of RCA interconnect, which 1m is consider "short" cable in home audio application, 1.5m is standard, and 3m is still acceptable. If you run the connection in 4.4mm balanced, you can go for much longer length if the cable is properly shielded.

Therefore 18" is definitely not a problem, you can literally custom make them in any length you need. the only worry is the weight of the cable might stress the soldering point at some point, so don't use heavy duty cable for that purpose. For example, I used Wireworld Nano series when I DIY long interconnect with 3.5mm with ease, but when I converted a pair of Sommer Blue Water Excelsior XLR into 4.4mm, I have to strength the connection with 3 layers of heat-shrink tubes, it looks ugly, but that's how it takes to get it work when you play around with lone/heavy cable for portable connectors.

Thanks very much. Yeah I think I'm going to go for it. Maybe 60cm...

Will probably just use the same cables being used as headphone cables - 27AWG 4n silver litz, 4 cores, nylon core, a PVC coat, individual nylon sleeving (and braided). Please let me know if you think this is an issue at all.

 

[Andykong]

A02 is fabulous - far exceeding my expectation. It is now replacing my desktop DAC to drive my Broadway Amp. Performance-wise my Burson DAC still wins, but N6ii + A02 gives close enough SQ to me while offering a lot more convenience.

Sorry I forgot which Burson DAC are you comparing to ? Is that a streamer + DAC or a DAC/Amp? Do you need a source (digital transport) to your Burson DAC? Maybe N6ii can serve as a common source in the comparison, and then you will be comparing A02 vs Burson DAC directly, with N6ii as a constant in the comparison.

 

[Andykong]

It will ship as soon as @Andykong can arrange after Chinese New Year break

I can't take this credit because they were taken care by other excellent Cayin staff, I am just a small piece in the Cayin system that happens to be placed under spotlight.

 

[Andykong]

What an coincidence, I also gave my C9 some height as well!

TAOC is excellent stuff, I used them with my desktop system, good choice indeed.

Any impression to compare with or without the TAOC?

 

[bluestorm1992]

Sorry I forgot which Burson DAC are you comparing to ? Is that a streamer + DAC or a DAC/Amp? Do you need a source (digital transport) to your Burson DAC? Maybe N6ii can serve as a common source in the comparison, and then you will be comparing A02 vs Burson DAC directly, with N6ii as a constant in the comparison.

It is the Burson Composer 3XP. It is a pure DAC; no streaming function but can take coax or usb input. Yes at the moment I figure that the best use case is N6ii as the source for Coax-in to the Burson DAC.

 

[Whitigir]

It is the Burson Composer 3XP. It is a pure DAC; no streaming function but can take coax or usb input. Yes at the moment I figure that the best use case is N6ii as the source for Coax-in to the Burson DAC.

Why not A02 ? Not worth it ?

 

[bluestorm1992]

Why not A02 ? Not worth it ?

For comparison purpose only.

 

[Andykong]

I really couldn’t go back to the original DAP alone after hearing it paired with C9. I feel like C9 is digging out the full potential of the DAP. N6ii + E02 sounds so mediocre compared to N6ii + E02 + C9, and this is with IEM (UM MEST/U18t).

How am I supposed to do any travel in the future with my DAP alone. May need to carry C9 with me always.

Carrying C9 around is not a big problem, it's quite robust and conveniently shaped, I just put it into a small travelling flannel bag and put them into one of the smaller compartment of my backpack. Trying to listening to C9 while walking around or travelling on bus/underground is something I yet to solve myself.

It will be very hard to carry the C9 portably as there are a couple issues.

1/ Dissipating heats. If you are in SS and AB, then it is acceptable, but if you put it in the backpack, it would heat up very fast as well. Now, if you are using Tube and class A, even just leaving it on the table, you can’t even touch it without tolerating the heat and clinching teeth’s

2/ the interconnect or plugs Protruding outward. This can be fixed if you go with “L” connectors all around.

Unless you are willing to look into or customize a case that can host both the C9, the sources, with Active cooling fans that run on battery by itself, and an opening to access and browse the source....at this level of complications....

I have prepared myself almost exactly as you have said: a L-connector portable cable and I am willing to stick with SS Class AB when I am running around, but the C9 will still warm up quickly when placed into a bad ventilated environment such as backpack. N6ii has the added advantage to offer remote manipulation through HiByLink, so I am all ready except a customized bag that can house C9 with any choice of DAP. I have talked to Teddy san from Vannuys for advice, so this is something we need to solved down the road.

 

[Whitigir]

Carrying C9 around is not a big problem, it's quite robust and conveniently shaped, I just put it into a small travelling flannel bag and put them into one of the smaller compartment of my backpack. Trying to listening to C9 while walking around or travelling on bus/underground is something I yet to solve myself.





I have prepared myself almost exactly as you have said: a L-connector portable cable and I am willing to stick with SS Class AB when I am running around, but the C9 will still warm up quickly when placed into a bad ventilated environment such as backpack. N6ii has the added advantage to offer remote manipulation through HiByLink, so I am all ready except a customized bag that can house C9 with any choice of DAP. I have talked to Teddy san from Vannuys for advice, so this is something we need to solved down the road.

Just get something like this , and May want to punch some vent holes on the traveling pouch, stuck it on and carry away
https://www.amazon.com/Flydigi-Cool...073b9&pd_rd_wg=zmGGZ&pd_rd_i=B07V1RHRC7&psc=1

 

[lumdicks]

TAOC is excellent stuff, I used them with my desktop system, good choice indeed.

Any impression to compare with or without the TAOC?

No snake oil here but I found the background cleaner with better micro dynamic, especially for the tube mide, which is a common change of improved shock insulation.

 

[Andykong]

RIP my speaker system that's has been collecting dust in a cupboard for years now. Now that technology allows us to listen anywhere around the house or office without compromising fidelity (physical sensation of sub bass aside) it has become such an easy thing to embrace. I do sometimes miss the feeling of being viscerally overwhelmed by sheer waves of sound, but as someone who's always prioritized hearing every tiny nuance of every tiny instrument earphones & portable systems are a joy.

From a technical standpoint I guess the big advantage in terms of amplification would be not needing huge amounts of wattage to push massive drivers, making a battery-powered supply adequate. In fairness there's battery-powered speaker amps out there (IIRC Vinnie Rossi used to make them?) but I've read they lack dynamics. That's where I find something like the C9 is valuable, because even if you listen to IEMs directly out of a DAP and the dynamics seem fine, they can probably be improved substantially by adding an external amp. Pity audiophiles don't talk about dynamics more often as they're such a vital component (along with a black background) to great sound... but harder to quantify than something like soundstage width.

The other thing I've always found about having "too much" amplification is it makes you realize your DAP may be struggling to deal with complex passages, to the point where -and perhaps this is just me- you've found yourself subconsciously wincing when listening to a familiar track and you know one is coming up. That was always the big drawback of my AK380, a wimpy built-in headphone amp that would 'sag' whenever too much was happening in the music, yet sound completely dynamically-different on say girl/guitar albums where there was a lot less work for it to do. Things have come a long way, but I still don't have much faith in any DAP to deliver a cutting-edge dynamic performance using built-in amplfication alone - there simply isn't enough room for the circuitry! Full disclaimer though, I've yet to hear the DX220MAX or Kann Alpha and do recognize things are trending in the right direction. Probably less of an issue for anyone listening to all-BA earphones too.

I also miss the feeling of being overwhelmed by waves of sound, but the biggest reason for me to go back to speaker setup is soundstage and layering IN FRONT OF me, that is still something that we can't replicate with headphone system. The closest I tried is A16 Realiser from Smyth Research and it works pretty well. Let's hope this will work out in the future and we can enjoy our headphone system at next level.

When I started this thread, I said something like there is no such thing as over-powered, even IEMs will perform at a different level when we have ample power. I didn't have a lot of consent at that time, I hope C9 will prove Cayin's argument and more headfier will come to realise the important of good amplifier. By the way, the recent trend of low-impedance high sensitivity multi-BA has lowered the amplification requirements, but that's not necessarily result of BA technologies in general. BA earphones can be demanding too. The first IEM that started my journey to use desktop headphone amplifier with earphone was Etymotic ER4S, a single BA rated at 150 ohms if I remember it correctly, I was using a very powerful DAP (iBasso DX100) at that time but still I was not convinced that I heard explored the full potential of this earphone already. I had plugged it to my YULONG DX200 and the different was almost night and day.

 

[Andykong]

Couldn’t agree more. Before getting C9 I have been listening under the assumption that TOTL DAPs should mostly likely have competent Amps, at least for IEMs. It was after getting C9 that I realized how much these DAPs are limited by their Amp section.

The improvement from C9 is far greater than what I expected. For example, the SE output from Lotoo PAW Gold has long been considered as one of the industry gold standards, even triumphing the SE from LPGT. I was surprised how much the improvement can be after pairing LPG with C9.

I've no doubt you're absolutely right about the C9. In fact it wouldn't surprise me to learn some TOTL desktop amps can push IEMs even further than it can. I think people assume because they're so small IEMs won't keep scaling with better sources & amps but I suspect one could spend many thousands on desktop electronics and hear their performance increase. Of course by that stage it may make more sense to simply plug in a TOTL headphone, which may be why most people wouldn't think to try it.

This could also explain why BA-based earphones have gained so much popularity, because DAPs are much more able to extract closer-to-full performance from them. Hybrids are also popular but their DDs are mostly used for sub bass so it doesn't matter how well they're driven to the same extent. What disappoints me is seeing people spend megabucks on cables for portable systems they only use at home, knowing if they put that money towards a C9 for example they'd probably be seeing MUCH more performance. I'm not saying that as a cable skeptic, but the capability of modern DAPs has almost created a culture of amp skeptics who falsely believe DAPs are giving their IEMs all the quality juice they could possibly need.

I want to quote a short passage from my C9 description on the opening post of this thread:

Cayin firmly believe that when the amplifier excels in control and equipped with appropriate volume management, there is no such thing as over-powered. Even IEMs will perform at a different level when we have ample power. ... Given the rapid development of high-end IEMs in recent years, Cayin believes there is a market for ultimate portable headphone amplifier that can bring out the best of these high-end IEMs, .....

When I said C9 was designed with IEM as priority, everyone just assume C9 will be a low powered amplifier. The common consent is, that kind of power is irrelevant for IEM and no one will pay top dollars for a high power portable headphone amplifier designed for IEM products. I am glad that your impressions have proven our point. There is a market for something like C9, this is an unexplored territories in Personal Audio, and we can push the envelope of the industry and offer more room for IEM products down the road. I am not sure if we have delivered a game changer at this point, we need more time to sustain this claim, but the Cayin management and R&D team are definitely excited to know we are heading to the right track.