Cayin C9: Dual Nutube, Fully Balanced Class A/AB Portable HeadAmp
Feb 6, 2021 at 3:02 PM Post #826 of 6,212
Okay so I have a stupid question. If I already have an ibasso dx220 max and 300, what benefit for my iems do I get for adding a Cayin C9 to the equation? I’m new to amps.
From my experiences, my Z1R and EX1K have better soundstage, textures, dynamic and most importantly, the blackness of the back ground....from the stack of C9+Max

Additionally you have different timbres and amp classes to choose from , and the differences is obvious between them
 
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Feb 6, 2021 at 3:09 PM Post #830 of 6,212
I’m going to see if musicteck has a demo.
I don’t think so right now, but yes please contact them.

Andrew told me that this batch is almost sold out. The next batch would not be available until late March.
 
Feb 6, 2021 at 3:11 PM Post #832 of 6,212
I don’t think so right now, but yes please contact them.

Andrew told me that this batch is almost sold out. The next batch would not be available until late March.
Highly recommended MusicTeck and a Demo for sure. Do it as soon as possible as there are stocks....it will be another 4-5 weeks for the next batch LOL!!!

already got an email, amazing CS as always. They’re sold out of their first batch and they don’t have a demo.

edit: musicteck still has some left, I misunderstood.
 
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Feb 6, 2021 at 3:13 PM Post #833 of 6,212
Okay so I have a stupid question. If I already have an ibasso dx220 max and 300, what benefit for my iems do I get for adding a Cayin C9 to the equation? I’m new to amps.
I don’t have either iBasso DAPs, but J have had LPGT so probably can share some related experience as well.

My simple motivation is that I want to experience what tube devices are like. I was originally thinking about WA8, but now the C9 seems to be a much better option for the money ($1500-2000). Also, I want something that is kind of portable and can drive my Diana V2; I am hopeful that C9 can achieve this.
 
Feb 6, 2021 at 4:37 PM Post #836 of 6,212
Since Twister6 has raised an interested topic regarding volume would have been much lower if run it off the BAL output (or maybe high gain will also cause similar effect), I'll take this opportunity to explain the volume and gain control of C9 in detail. This is one of the critical designs that facilitate C9 to work well with both IEMs and headphones and the implementation is way more complicated than we anticipated in the very beginning.

Gain Control, Volume Control and Input Sensitivity

The C9 volume control is divided into two parts. The front-end control is a high quality 4-channels ALPS potentiometer, this will provide a firm, reliable and familiar rotation control experience to our users. The back end of the volume control system is a PAIR of low distortion 130 steps resistance ladder stereo electronic volume, MUSES72320, this is a very high quality volume control chip, it is more sophisticated that then PGA2311A used in N8 DAP. The PGA2311A has internal op-amp that can’t be bypass and that will introduce a small amount of background noise and its own tonal characteristic to the circuit. The MUSES72320 integrated with our discrete headphone amplifier circuit completely, instead of relying on internal Op-Amp. Each MUSES72320 is equivalent to 4 potentiometers in one chip: 2 for stereo volume and 2 for stereo gain, we need to install a pair of them for fully balanced implementation.

1612601442579.png

Although it comes with its own gain circuit, we want to further enhance the gain control of C9, so we have added a preliminary gain control circuit before the MUSES72320 electronic volume control, and use a MCU to select between internal gain circuit and our own gain circuit according to the volume level setting. For the record, we have two MCU in C9, one for volume/gain control, and the other in Power management circuit.

The ALPS + 2xMUSES72320 in C9 delivers a volume control system that is very precise, highly linear, and extremely flexible so that you'll have enough "room" to adjust your volume from highly sensitive IEM to full size headphones. During the critical volume range (~63dB to -5dB), we offer 0.5dB attenuation per step, and that span across from slightly before 9 o'clock position to 4 o'clock position of the ALPS volume knob, roughly speaking.

1612601244711.png

Take Alex's little experiment for example. When you change from single-ended mode to balanced mode, the output power will indeed increase significantly, 4 times more at 150+ Ohms, or more than 3 times below 150 Ohm. However the volume position will not go down linearly to 1/3 or 1/4 of original position. That's because power vs dB is a logarithmic function, not a linear function. To quantify the dB vs power relationship, 4 times more power will increase volume by 6dB (check WiKi for detail explanation), and in C9 volume control, that will be 12 steps, or from 12 o'clock (61/130) to 11:15 o'clock (49/30)

Another factor that affects the relationship between gain control and output power is input level. We have documented that in the input sensitivity section of our specification table.

C9 Input Sensitivity.jpg

If you are in Line input mode, C9 can deliver the stated output power in low gain IF your front-end can meet the output level as stated in the Input Sensitivity of our specification table, that’s why didn’t list high or low gain setting as an variable in power rating. For instance, you only need 1.5V Single-ended and 3.0V Balanced in high gain for C9 to deliver the rated output power, but if you switch to low gain, you need 3.0V Single-ended and 6V balanced for C9 to deliver the same maximum rated output power. Similarly, if you are using PRE-amp input mode and your preamp (or phone out) offers adequate output level (e.g., 8.4V from A02), you can achieve maximum output power at low gain.

The question is, do you need the extra power provided by high gain even when your output level does not meet the requirement as stated in the input sensitivity table? This is more a headroom issue, so you can consider high gain as extra 6dB headroom at difficult load rather than how many watts is needed to produce 100dB loudness at 1 kHz. On the other hand, headroom is a personal requirement because it also depends on music genre, dynamic range of music passage and/or person preference in music presentation. In my person experience, if the sensitivity of my headphone is not too low (e.g, enough sound pressure before 3 o'clock position), then I should have enough headroom even at low gain. For your reference, from 3 o'clock position (step 109/130) to max volume is roughly 13dB. I prefer to stay in low gain all the way because low gain offers slightly better dynamic range and SNR over high gain (again, check the specification table for the exact different at different mode).

I just want you to know that this is the single coolest interaction I have ever seen a company have with this community. Not only are you transparent with the functions and limitations of the device, but you make it extremely clear why you have made the decisions you did while educating on control schema. Really, really amazing post.
 
Feb 6, 2021 at 5:08 PM Post #837 of 6,212
Should be an excellent choice for affordability while cutting off the timbres and classes of amp as an options. But then again, if you want everything the C9 offers, you may want to 4x the price of the BX2+ :wink:. Now that would also put the BX2 arguably into flagship design isn’t it ? Whether they can or not doing it is another matter.

Not sure if being more transparent is a better thing than having a fuller body and textures. In my opinions and experiences, having compromises of the body density will yield a better airiness and transparency....but do I want my Organic guitar to sound like an Electric guitar ? Definitely Not

The one thing with KORG on C9 is that it takes at least 20 minutes to start to sound more refined. This is the thing most of the sophisticated tubes amps do inherit though.
Well I wouldn’t say that true transparency is something like you described. In fact I could also flip the coin to the other side and state that I wouldn’t want my electric guitar to sound like an organic guitar (because of the added warmth) 😜
But we both know this is all theoretic blabla. What matters is that the music we hear moves us. And it seems that the C9 does exactly that for you. That’s what’s important. Have fun listening to your new toy and keep us updated 👍
 
Feb 6, 2021 at 5:09 PM Post #838 of 6,212
Okay so I have a stupid question. If I already have an ibasso dx220 max and 300, what benefit for my iems do I get for adding a Cayin C9 to the equation? I’m new to amps.

With an excellent amp, you’ll have more expansive soundstage and headroom. Layering, imaging and instrument separation will also be improved.
 
Feb 6, 2021 at 5:15 PM Post #839 of 6,212
Well I wouldn’t say that true transparency is something like you described. In fact I could also flip the coin to the other side and state that I wouldn’t want my electric guitar to sound like an organic guitar (because of the added warmth) 😜
But we both know this is all theoretic blabla. What matters is that the music we hear moves us. And it seems that the C9 does exactly that for you. That’s what’s important. Have fun listening to your new toy and keep us updated 👍

True, transparency doesn’t necessarily mean “thinner” or ”leaner”. It just doesn’t add any coloring to the sound of the source.
 

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